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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2017 15:40:52 GMT
The Seeds of Radio
Mighty 1650 looks back: "KDKA started selling ads in the mid 20s."
Some very smart thinkers were on-board in those first days of radio at KDKA in Pitsgurgh! Right around that time, in the 1920s, the 1st commercial license was issued to KDKA.
Meanwhile, at the Jesuit St. Louis University, a smart Jesuit Brother was operating an experimental transmitter out of the Technology Department which broadcast weather information to surrounding farms under the early call sign 9Yk, and then obtained the 2nd commercial radio license as WEW.
One more interesting tale of yesteryear that may be forgotten is that commercial companies started radio stations to advertise their own companies and products... I almost remember a few large examples... I think Sears was one of the early company radio stations.
In St. Louis WSBF was the station of department store chain Stix, Baer and Fuller, until the FCC decided to prohibit companies to own stations to advertise themselves. I think WSBF became a separate entity and changed its call letters to KMOX... "K" for West of the Mississippi, "MO" for Missouri, and "X" because the new station was launched on Christmas Day of some year.
Maybe I don't have all the facts straight on those details, but some version of it is true history.
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Post by mighty1650 on Mar 17, 2017 17:43:46 GMT
I had never actually heard of WEW, thanks for opening that little door of history for me to discover Carl! Too bad it seems that station is mostly brokered out now.
KMOX has a pretty solid signal here at night.
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Post by thelegacy on Mar 17, 2017 23:31:48 GMT
I think Sears did have a station on top of their tower in Chicago. I'd like to know if they had anything to do with WGN?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2017 23:40:21 GMT
The Legacy is Getting Warm
TheLegacy has some clues about radio history: "I think Sears did have a station on top of their tower in Chicago. I'd like to know if they had anything to do with WGN?"
First I'll talk about what I do know...
WGN was the radio station of the Chicago Tribune, and stood for the newspaper's slogan : World's Greatest Newspaper.
I think a Sears-Roebuck (original name of the company) radio station existed before the Sears Tower was built, but today the Sears Tower holds the main antennas for Chicago-Lands main FM and TV stations.
I will head out on a research mission to find out about the company owned radio stations from the early years.
I should be back in an hour.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2017 23:50:00 GMT
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Post by thelegacy on Mar 18, 2017 3:49:07 GMT
Yes WLS is a station I was thinking of as well. You also have WBZ in Boston which is a three-letter station which probably was owned by some sort of company or retail store way back then.
So as you can see radio drifted towards the influence of retail and corporate and we're talking big corporate chains. However WLS although not album Rock per say was one of the better hit rock stations out there and on am. Their FM station however was more towards the Album Rock format as I have received it when I was in Chicago. Later it became talk radio.
It was interesting learning about WGN as it stood for world's greatest newspaper. Interesting as well that WGN also has a good news program when they do broadcast Chicago's news on their station as part of a cable network system.
I do remember the FCC having to separate terrestrial broadcast TV from cable networks but WTBS Atlanta and WGN as well as WOR were grandfathered even though they are on some of the major Cable Systems. I do believe that WOR however is not a national cable network anymore but at one time they were and you could pick them up on just about any cable system.
Channel 50 in Detroit Michigan was a part of a large cable network as well because anywhere in Michigan you could receive channel 50. We're talking back when cable had 35 some channels. But when the FCC started to break up the monopolies this was no more.
What I don't understand though however is how they allow a few broadcast companies to own so many radio stations in radio markets in close proximity to each other. What made them change the rules to allow this is beyond my understanding at this point however I do believe at some point this form of Monopoly will have to be challenged once again.
This brings us back to hobby radio or the free radio movement as these conglomerates feel that it loosens their control that they have on the radio bands and this is what they fear the most. However getting back to the early days of radio and what it was really meant for I do believe if the right organization or to fight that we could actually get somewhere with it.
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Post by End80 on Mar 18, 2017 8:04:32 GMT
I know a touch about WOR which came up from research of the OTR "Quiet Please" program, WOR was never a network, it was just a Chicago station that was an affiliate of the Mutual Broadcasting System which competed second place to ABC.
But back to the topic which I just now catching up with the last two pages, and here's my response to it:
Certain frequencies are the business realm, but hobby radio is provided sufficient power in most all the other frequencies of the radio spectrum, they communicate across the world for crissake and it's not difficult (though it used to be) or expensive to have the licensing for it anymore.. But the pirate argument is that most people do not have the cash flow to foot the bill or an easy opportunity of getting into those business frequencies. However there is the option to broadcast in those frequencies, free of charge, without needing to acquire licensing, permissions, or even give notice. The sole stipulation is limited coverage area.. In other words we can have a piece of the business frequencies for absolutely free to do whatever we want to do with it.
You can liken Part15 to opening a little Mom and Pop corner store at any given whim you feel, at no cost on a small scale. If you want to open a supermarket then you have to find a locations for it, secure the licensing, and invest the expense of the inventory your going to sell. If you want a superstore structure (ie: Wallmart), then it becomes even more difficult and expensive, but is the most lucrative objective, because the local supermarkets, and Mom and Pop corner stores have a hard time competing with a superstore.
The Pirate argument seems to be that since most people cant afford the investment and the prime locations are already owned anyway, then these businesses should be stolen from the owners. I don't agree with this view.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2017 15:06:53 GMT
Defining Re-Defining and Refining the Definition of Radio Piracy
In the last few weeks I've been re-thinking and re-building my own understanding of the expression "radio piracy".
My most recent opinion formed suddenly when I heard a news report about Somali pirates taking over a ship that belonged to a business company out on the ocean. The original source of the expression "pirate" comes from such sea pirates.
At the same moment End80 posted these words: "The Pirate argument seems to be that since most people cant afford the investment and the prime locations are already owned anyway, then these businesses should be stolen from the owners."
That's it. Pirate radio would be "stolen radio", such as breaking into a transmitter building and taking over the transmission by plugging in one's I-pod, or, busting into a studio somewhere and confiscating the microphone to deliver unauthorized messages.
But that still leaves a third category of unlicensed operation somewhere between part 15 and piracy that I call "Free Radio", which is equivalent to entering federal land without going through the reception gate, or perhaps it's like driving a car without a driver's license. To put it in other words, it brings us back to the realm of "civil disobedience" and separates it from "piracy".
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Post by mark on Mar 18, 2017 16:00:26 GMT
End80's analogy of pirate vs licensed makes perfect sense and I never really thought of it that way. And in Canada the "part 15" is a little less restrictive with FM. I think that the problem with part 15 is it's a little too restrictive so even a "ma and pa" store on the corner can't get off the ground. A slight relaxation of the rules would go a long way to solving the pirate problem, even adopting BETS-1 in the USA would go a long way. And maybe relaxing the ground wire rule a bit also for AM.
Mark
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Post by thelegacy on Mar 18, 2017 17:57:50 GMT
I can feel the whips and chains across my butt now. However I'm about ready to say something and I know a lot will disagree but here it is.
You are comparing apples to oranges with the analogy on Pirate Radio(FREE Radio). For one thing as long as you check and double-check and third time check the frequency and the one above it and the one below it to make sure that it is free it is not stealing your simply using what is unused. In other words it would be like someone taking a perfectly good working stereo and putting it at the curb to be thrown in the garbage because they don't need it anymore. You go ahead and take it bring it home and hook it up and everything's fine. You got a free stereo system whereas other people say well you should have paid for that. I say to heck with that and another thing I will bring up in the next paragraph.
You cannot obtain what the FCC is not willing to give you legally. Meaning the window on LPFM has been closed for some time and probably won't be open for some time. I watched the Youtube video called hunting a pirate whereas it cost $85,000 to rent land to put up a tower. Next you need money for the tower itself. Now stop and think about the price it cost for a part 73 licensed transmitter or should I say certified transmitter. For the big boys meaning the businessman who make tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands daily this is a flash in the pan for them wah wah get real.
Now for the little guy who is doing it to serve the community and fill in a niche that the business radio folks cannot or will not partake in feeling it is not fair that you would have to pay the same amount. Oh and I didn't even mention that the FCC does charge for the license itself. Hobby Radio or FREE Radio or Pirate Radio whatever you want to call it is not the same thing as commercialized Broadcasting. The problem is is that it has gone way out of hand where it is a cash cow only in the community and their best interest is only second nature in thought and action.
Just take a look at how these greedy piggies and should I say political Piggies at that are striving to quash the LPFM station's any chance they get. Even if us hobby broadcasters did have that money which we never will but lets just say a miracle happens and we were able to get a million dollars to miraculously come out of our behinds. Even so these folks would try anything and everything they could to stomp you out like the Cockroach they think you are. Watching Shark Tank that is how corporations think of the little guy you're nothing but a cockroach to be crushed.
Unfortunately for these greedy piggies new technology has taken advancement and just like some other countries in which do have bedroom DJs or home DJs or whatever you want to call the hobby or free radio operators its now something for these greedy pigs to cry and whine about until they think they'll get their way. They make crushush a few FREE Radio operators out of business and they think they will win the war. But an actual reality is that the more they scream and yell and throw fits the more some folks will continue to do what they do.
The best thing would be to allow a certain slice of the band for hobby radio so long as they don't cause harmful interference. I have talked numerous times about how to prevent harmful interference in which should work if people were to practice it.
Your tax dollars are being wasted on silly nonsense just like the riaa has tried to stomp out file sharing this all started around 2002 - 2003. Has it stopped? Hell No in fact it's gotten stronger and stronger. They killed Napster and then came KaZaa. After KaZaa then came bit torrents. There was also WinMX and LimeWire Gnutilla Aries and a host of P2P programs. Now even YouTube is being used to trade music for FREE.
All of this costs the courts billions of dollars for what? To try to appease a few greedy folks who are unwilling to change the model of business.
Some people think and say that I am nothing but a person who buckks Authority at every challenge. But the truth is I'm a realist which means that things don't continue to happen the same way forever.
Napster even offered to do add supported music downloads to support the artist. But a few greedy labels and the riaa would not have it because they didn't want freeloaders to be able to get music. They wanted to have complete control over who and what accesses the material.
But just like catching fish the more you try to put a grip on it the little fish will go right between your fingers. There is just no way they are going to stop hobby radio they can try but they will fail at every attempt in the future. Even the threat of jail will not stop some. Speaking of jail why waste jail space where as hardened criminals such as Charles Manson would get let out because of the overcrowding of the cells for what a few hobby radio broadcasters? That's really using your Noggin isn't it?
As for BETS one it's not much more than part 15 level. If you're going to ask for something ask for something that's worthwhile and not waste the FCC's time. I say a one to two mile range is not too much to ask. Especially in rural areas and a separate service for hobby Broadcasting.
We were even told this by an FCC agent himself that if we were to petition that would be the best way to go not try to Simply change the field strength for part 15 Broadcasting. Again this came from the horse's mouth.
As for AM Getting rid of the ground rule and 3 meter antenna roll is a good start. This would actually give you some range bye being able to use a 20 meter antenna or whatever. And 100 milliwatts how much damned interference do you think that would cause if the transmitter was made right?
It's going to take folks who have a definite push and drive to actually get anything done at all. But unfortunately I think to get this thing done will have to actually go back to what I proposed before and that's the Discrimination lawsuit something I hate to try to push because I don't like when certain races pull that card but sometimes you have to use what will work even though it sounds cheesy and tacky.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2017 21:40:35 GMT
No whips & chains, just facts.
First, the only way to know if you're interfering with another signal is to use expensive test equipment - listening just doesn't cut it.
Second, there are plenty of pirates (let's call them what they really are) that DON'T care if they're interfering with a licensed station, or anything else on the dial. The multitude of NOUO's issued for FM stations in New York and elsewhere tell the tale there. Open it up, and you'll get even more yahoo's buying inexpensive FM transmitters and tromping over everything on the dial.
Third, typically those who pay the required freight to put a licensed station on the airwaves have earned their money, and radio isn't a business where you're going to make a ton of profit anyway. Why should those who haven't paid their way have the right to potentially interfere with them (either RF or business-wise)?
The only way I can see the FCC increasing the signal strength of unlicensed broadcasters is to give them their own frequencies. The white space frequencies would be ideal, as I've posted on previous occasions (multiple times) particularly with the hardware requirements limiting interference to other stations. Why not go for that (all it would take would be a directive from the FCC that it's OK to broadcast on those frequencies), rather than keeping coming back to the existing FM broadcast band? If a station really is providing programming and entertainment that no one else is, interested people will find a way to listen to it, regardless of where it is in the RF spectrum.
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Post by mighty1650 on Mar 19, 2017 3:35:03 GMT
Legacy I do admire your passion but it is clear you have limited knowledge of the buisness aspect of radio. Radio is extraordinarily expensive and, despite what you might think, broadcasters typically do not have very much money. Sure, the station itself might make a TON but the overhead costs are astronomical. Electric is high, talent costs are high, rent is high, equipment is insane. It cost our cluster $62,000 in equipment and installation to put a 250 Watt FM translator on the air, that does not count the price of the license we had to buy nor the engineering study that took place. Not to mention the cost of real estate when we outright purchased the existing tower and land.
Are some broadcasters greedy? Absolutely, though many are not and are trying to scoot by.
Now for the little guy, the cost of the license is directly proportionate to the size of the audience served and the station class as well as commercial status. A non-com class A will cost substantially less than a commercial class B or C. The FCC is not snubbing the small guy, the windows take time because ENGINEERING TAKES TIME. It takes awhile to sort out all the thousands of different applications making sure only the most competent operator gets the license, usually the highest bidder, and that no harmful interference is caused. It is simply just not as easy as checking with a radio.
As for pirate radio, in my experience pirates are usually spitting out overmodulated garbage with little regard to who they might be interfering with. What you want is LPFM, which we have. Hell just go buy one and move it, there are several failed LPFM stations that have gone dark.
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Post by End80 on Mar 19, 2017 5:31:11 GMT
Keep in mind, even with the part 15 rules as they are, your stations range is not really limited at all, it is simply the transmitter itself that is limited. Multiple transmitters are allowed and you could conceivably cover a 10 mile range or more using just part15, it takes a more effort and expense but the existing rules permit it. But that's not satisfactory from a pirate point of view, a pirates insist on something for nothing, and insist they have the right to it.. so they pillage instead of work towards their objective. Pirate Radio got it's name from pirate ships because their essence is identical. You like to redefine Pirate Radio as "Free Radio", but that's very deceptive, yes, it's free because it is stolen, you can call it whatever you want. A rose by any other name is still a rose.
The little guy can serve the community with part 15, it just takes more transmitters spread out around the community. It is not necessary to steal, it's just easier.
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Post by mark on Mar 19, 2017 5:43:45 GMT
And this can be done with FM too. No law in Canada says I can't put a Decade transmitter in locations say 30 to 50 meters apart and have all transmitters simultaneously broadcasting the same thing and cover a whole lot of ground. End80 is absolutely right. Realistically it may not be likely to be able to be done and how would you get your source to all the transmitters and operate such an endeaver, but it's not illegal.
The CRTC even mentions such a thing when referring to BETS-1 stations.
Mark
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Post by End80 on Mar 19, 2017 8:17:11 GMT
Realistically it may not be likely to be able to be done and how would you get your source to all the transmitters and operate such an endeavor.. Actually I believe it has been done numerous times, usually with the assistance of Barix boxes or other means such as legal unlicensed microwave point to point methods. It does take addition effort and expense but it's certainly attainable. An easier, cheaper and less perfect method would be to simply utilize internet stream as the feeds.. yes there are problems with that too, but it can be made to work. I disagree when you say it's not realistically likely, it's completely realistic.
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