|
|
Post by radiodugger on Apr 7, 2017 16:21:58 GMT
Very Accurate Overview of the Lost Art of WritHey! To all those planning to write a petition to the FCC... ask Doug to check it over! Oh GOD! No! I am currently writing an article and a review on another site unrelated to radio. I am two articles and a review behind! I don't get paid for this... Others come to me to proofread. Again...free. I educated myself. I am NOT the sharpest tool in the shed. In fact, if I had to write a petition to ANY government authority, I would hire a professional. As has been pointed out (rather concisely, I might add, albeit civil...), I can be rather childish in my humor. It worked on the radio, but in print...not so much. I am still learning, myself. A professional could knock this thing out in a day. But (and it's a BIG Kim Kardashian BUT), all the info has to be there, and has to be correct. Doug |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 17:11:17 GMT
To Doug
RadioDugger in a moment of self deprecation: "I am NOT the sharpest tool in the shed."
And the rest of us don't even have a shed.
|
|
|
|
Post by Druid Hills Radio on Apr 7, 2017 18:35:45 GMT
To DougRadioDugger in a moment of self deprecation: " I am NOT the sharpest tool in the shed." CB SAID: "And the rest of us don't even have a shed." DHR EXCLAIMED: " Wait a minute. I thought the Internet Building was a shed?" |
|
|
|
Post by thelegacy on Apr 7, 2017 20:32:10 GMT
I have no issue with having Doug check out our work. In fact I wish we had him when we first started with the petition at the New Radio Revolution (Not this one that was published).
Aside from the grammar and spelling errors I have a beef with the fact this petition makes it almost impractical or impossible for a budding low powered hobby station wanting to cover say 5 miles (North, East, West, South) with your transmitter in the middle. I'll go into some of my issues and this is a copy paste of what I wrote in the public section of The New Radio Revolution site:
(1) it absolutely screws apartment dwellers. If you live on the 15th floor of a building and want to set up a community hobby station this proposal puts an end to this. (Why rejoice in something that will ream fellow hobby broadcasters in the butt).
(2) The proposal mentions that the coax MUST be buried to stop radiation and again this helps range. This you can tell was written by a radio broadcaster who probably works for an NAB affiliate and thus wants to put a kibosh to the hobby Radio operator.
(3) The proposal prevents a quick emergency set up due to the huge elaborate ground radial requirements.
(4) The proposal prevents a simple 8 Ft ground rod set up. Remember it talks about 30 ground radials at a precise wavelength that itself kills that.
(5) Telling the FCC they have the right to charge whatever they very well want is an open invite for them to charge steep and non affordable fees to the hobby individual clearing the way for only the rich to operate.
(6) Making a limit to only one station stops any possible future development of say an FM hobby station for that individual should one ever exist in the future. Again this was well thought of to KEEP the hobby operator from FM.
(7) because of these kibosh's to the hobby Radio operator on this service don't think you part 15ers will get away willy nilly either because the FCC may make stiffer requirements to you as well.
(8) The mention of part 15 (how many times do we have to tell you that the FCC said NOT to even mention part 15 in the petition)? Obviously certain folks don't listen to what our research has taken us.
(9) If the transmitter already has a modulation limiter similar to what is used in CB transmitters and Ham units why require an expensive O scope to be always in line? Again this raises the price BIG TIME and you guys complain that I wanted to have the FM transmitter scan first to make sure the frequency is blank? Yes I understand this would help to prevent interference but again this leaves things super wide open.
(10) Nothing was mentioned about certification of the transmitter itself or rather kits would be allowed. The agent is free to go willy nilly and ban you because he sees your transmitter was not certified and approved before manufactured and thus put on air.
(11) A starter station must start at a 6 meter antenna and then later after 6 month reapply for an extended antenna. Again this could cost you another 100K if the FCC chose to charge 100K for the application in the first place.
(12) This will not might cause more folks to say bump it and just run Pirate because this petition was not well thought of and did NOT take other groups in consideration before posting to the FCC. This was obviously a one-sided decision making process by a group who again had an elite access only which is exactly what we did only thing was we published our group and offered our access to those who was serious about the hobby. This petition does not have a hobby broadcasting friendly feel to it at all.
So before rejoicing because they done theirs before us you best read and let it sink in all the stipulations these folks are imposing upon all of you. This petition was a very one-sided way to squash Hobby Broadcasting (Legally that is).
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 22:03:50 GMT
I don't think that you have to worry about that petition getting accepted, given the comments being posted here and elsewhere.
A couple of points about your comments, though.
I seriously doubt that the FCC is going to accept a proposal that allows a hobby broadcaster or a very low power broadcaster to get 2.5 miles range (a circle 5 miles in diameter). As I continue to harp on, the only way to convince them to give you any range at all is to define this service as Community Broadcasting, and then define the size of a typical community. In urban areas, I suspect 1/2 mile is the way to go, and perhaps 1 mile in semi-rural/rural areas. But again, you're going to have to do your homework, and come up with convincing arguments as to why these sizes are appropriate.
I also can't see anyone, on either AM or FM, being able to run a station in an apartment that gives you these increased ranges and that doesn't cause serious interference, particularly on AM. On FM, maybe that 1/2 mile range (with a city grade signal), if you allocate 87.5 & 87.7 as dedicated to this Community Broadcasting service, and leave 87.9 open as a buffer. You're going to have to do some serious modelling and experimentation, though.
|
|
|
|
Post by mark on Apr 7, 2017 22:45:35 GMT
Just like I've been saying all along from way back....the most(almost) important part of the petition to the FCC is grammar. And it seems that a lot of us agree on that.
oops! can't start a sentence with "and". I'm guilty too. But I'm not writing to the FCC.
Mark
|
|
|
|
Post by jimhenry2000 on Apr 8, 2017 4:21:41 GMT
As I currently struggle with setting up my own "community station" here in SE PA, I can't help but ponder how it might have gone if I set it up at my Michigan home! There it was all flat, typically only 1/3 to 1 acre lots. I'm sure I could have covered the entire community with just the one station. They already have a Facebook community set up and I think a broadcast station would have been a perfect complement! I have no issue with having Doug check out our work. In fact I wish we had him when we first started with the petition at the New Radio Revolution (Not this one that was published). Aside from the grammar and spelling errors I have a beef with the fact this petition makes it almost impractical or impossible for a budding low powered hobby station wanting to cover say 5 miles (North, East, West, South) with your transmitter in the middle. I'll go into some of my issues and this is a copy paste of what I wrote in the public section of The New Radio Revolution site: (1) it absolutely screws apartment dwellers. If you live on the 15th floor of a building and want to set up a community hobby station this proposal puts an end to this. (Why rejoice in something that will ream fellow hobby broadcasters in the butt). (2) The proposal mentions that the coax MUST be buried to stop radiation and again this helps range. This you can tell was written by a radio broadcaster who probably works for an NAB affiliate and thus wants to put a kibosh to the hobby Radio operator. (3) The proposal prevents a quick emergency set up due to the huge elaborate ground radial requirements. (4) The proposal prevents a simple 8 Ft ground rod set up. Remember it talks about 30 ground radials at a precise wavelength that itself kills that. (5) Telling the FCC they have the right to charge whatever they very well want is an open invite for them to charge steep and non affordable fees to the hobby individual clearing the way for only the rich to operate. (6) Making a limit to only one station stops any possible future development of say an FM hobby station for that individual should one ever exist in the future. Again this was well thought of to KEEP the hobby operator from FM. (7) because of these kibosh's to the hobby Radio operator on this service don't think you part 15ers will get away willy nilly either because the FCC may make stiffer requirements to you as well. (8) The mention of part 15 (how many times do we have to tell you that the FCC said NOT to even mention part 15 in the petition)? Obviously certain folks don't listen to what our research has taken us. (9) If the transmitter already has a modulation limiter similar to what is used in CB transmitters and Ham units why require an expensive O scope to be always in line? Again this raises the price BIG TIME and you guys complain that I wanted to have the FM transmitter scan first to make sure the frequency is blank? Yes I understand this would help to prevent interference but again this leaves things super wide open. (10) Nothing was mentioned about certification of the transmitter itself or rather kits would be allowed. The agent is free to go willy nilly and ban you because he sees your transmitter was not certified and approved before manufactured and thus put on air. (11) A starter station must start at a 6 meter antenna and then later after 6 month reapply for an extended antenna. Again this could cost you another 100K if the FCC chose to charge 100K for the application in the first place. (12) This will not might cause more folks to say bump it and just run Pirate because this petition was not well thought of and did NOT take other groups in consideration before posting to the FCC. This was obviously a one-sided decision making process by a group who again had an elite access only which is exactly what we did only thing was we published our group and offered our access to those who was serious about the hobby. This petition does not have a hobby broadcasting friendly feel to it at all. So before rejoicing because they done theirs before us you best read and let it sink in all the stipulations these folks are imposing upon all of you. This petition was a very one-sided way to squash Hobby Broadcasting (Legally that is). |
|
|
|
Post by thelegacy on Apr 8, 2017 8:49:00 GMT
jimhenry2000: Where in Michigan? I will tell you that towns like Baldwin could easily have a nice low powered hobby station on AM or FM. also what Artisan Radio mentioned about 87.5 being a part of the Hobby FM service and leaving 87.9 only as a buffer could also work as I've played with the New Radio's in cars and many go down to 87.5 (some as low as 87.1 but that is pushing the lower limit). Even with 87.5 and 87.7 Mhz as a National Hobby/community Radio frequency and putting out a signal that fades to black at 2 miles from the transmitter antenna to a good Radio like a Tecsun 880, 660, 310, County Comm, Grundig 450 DLX should be used as a reference point. The Countycomm can be purchased for $85 and has a DBuV meter and does cover 87.7 Mhz quite well. You could ride in a car with the antenna going out the window and at about 1-5 watts into a magnet mount vertical antenna about 6 foot above ground accomplish that sort of range. The Hobby FM transmitters could have a notch filter in it that only allows the frequency of use to pass. Cable companies do it all the time. In fact when Cable FM was used a filter was given to the customer to block the TV bands from coming through because some folks had crap stereo's that were not properly filtered. Notch filters (Positive traps) were used to block the beep beep in between the audio and video signals when cable TV was analog and was quite effective. So too you can block the entire FM band and beyond above 87.9 Mhz solving the interference issue and quite cheaply. In the analog cable TV days I could buy these filters for less than $50 so again now days I bet one could easily add that to the transmitter and all the troubles are over. Hell if need be the hobby transmitters could be 75 ohm (not 50) and the hobbyist simply buy those cable TV filters already available online. I hope any petition writer sees this and heeds to some of the suggestions. OK apartment dwellers can still operate low powered stations so long as they check their neighbors for bleed over or FM wash over. This is why I always said variable power from 0-legal should be allowed to allow the operator to stop bleed over in this situation. Even at 5 Watts you can live in a complex and not cause interference if you use these filters. There however is always an individual with the crappy FM Radio with no filter and those Radio's should be banned in the USA altogether. Still the hobbyist should be ready to buy the neighbor a better Radio if they have a garbage Radio and a Tecsun Radio should be the one to fit the bill.
|
|
|
|
Post by jimhenry2000 on Apr 9, 2017 5:50:03 GMT
Hi Legacy, From March 2011 to October 2016 I lived and worked in Michigan, managing the engineering side of service delivery/service assurance for my employer's commercial fiber business. The footprint I was responsible for covered all of Michigan, Indiana, and central Kentucky, but my office was in Plymouth, MI (birthplace of the Daisy BB gun!) and I bought a home in Brighton, MI. I did a lot of travel of course to my offices in Detroit, Lansing, Plymouth, Grand Rapids, Fort Wayne, Anderson, and Indianapolis. Everything is so flat out there that had I thought of it I have no doubt that I could have covered my entire development in Brighton (and then some) with my SSTRAN AMT-5000. I was already providing free WIFI to the community. As at my PA home I also had a 2nd floor deck on the back of my MI home and on that deck I had a 25' telescoping fiberglass tower which I used for a receiving antenna that I used for DX reception of SW and AM BCB stations. We did have a HOA with rules against antenna towers and all sorts of other stuff but they never gave me the list of restrictions until AFTER I closed on the house. I had never belonged to a HOA before so I asked the builder if they had any of the crazy HOA rules like I had read about in the news. He told me no, nothing really that the township didn't require. Well after I closed on the house they gave me a copy of the deed restrictions which I skimmed over and refused to sign. It did prohibit my antenna tower, I was not allowed to have a white mailbox, outdoor sheds were not allowed, trash cans must be kept in the garage except on pickup day. Garage doors must be kept closed, no boats, RVs, or ATVs in the driveway, etc., etc., etc. I just told them that was all bullpoop and nothing I agreed to pre-sale. My white mailbox and my antenna tower went up and I didn't hear a peep. I was only the 3rd occupant of this 30 home development but even after it filled up I noticed lots of people had sheds, boats, RVs, and ATVs. Anyway had I thought of it I am sure I could have established a Part 15 station for the entire community! I wish I had done it, but just wasn't aware of the Part 15 movement at the time! Rules Apr 8, 2017 4:49:00 GMT -4</abbr> thelegacy said:jimhenry2000 : Where in Michigan? I will tell you that towns like Baldwin could easily have a nice low powered hobby station on AM or FM. also what Artisan Radio mentioned about 87.5 being a part of the Hobby FM service and leaving 87.9 only as a buffer could also work as I've played with the New Radio's in cars and many go down to 87.5 (some as low as 87.1 but that is pushing the lower limit). Even with 87.5 and 87.7 Mhz as a National Hobby/community Radio frequency and putting out a signal that fades to black at 2 miles from the transmitter antenna to a good Radio like a Tecsun 880, 660, 310, County Comm, Grundig 450 DLX should be used as a reference point. The Countycomm can be purchased for $85 and has a DBuV meter and does cover 87.7 Mhz quite well. You could ride in a car with the antenna going out the window and at about 1-5 watts into a magnet mount vertical antenna about 6 foot above ground accomplish that sort of range. The Hobby FM transmitters could have a notch filter in it that only allows the frequency of use to pass. Cable companies do it all the time. In fact when Cable FM was used a filter was given to the customer to block the TV bands from coming through because some folks had crap stereo's that were not properly filtered. Notch filters (Positive traps) were used to block the beep beep in between the audio and video signals when cable TV was analog and was quite effective. So too you can block the entire FM band and beyond above 87.9 Mhz solving the interference issue and quite cheaply. In the analog cable TV days I could buy these filters for less than $50 so again now days I bet one could easily add that to the transmitter and all the troubles are over. Hell if need be the hobby transmitters could be 75 ohm (not 50) and the hobbyist simply buy those cable TV filters already available online. I hope any petition writer sees this and heeds to some of the suggestions. OK apartment dwellers can still operate low powered stations so long as they check their neighbors for bleed over or FM wash over. This is why I always said variable power from 0-legal should be allowed to allow the operator to stop bleed over in this situation. Even at 5 Watts you can live in a complex and not cause interference if you use these filters. There however is always an individual with the crappy FM Radio with no filter and those Radio's should be banned in the USA altogether. Still the hobbyist should be ready to buy the neighbor a better Radio if they have a garbage Radio and a Tecsun Radio should be the one to fit the bill. |
|
|
|
Post by thelegacy on Apr 9, 2017 18:20:33 GMT
Well after the petition goes through (We Got To Stop It) you won't hae to worry about part 15 anymore as it too talks about restricting part 15 much in the same manner described for the proposed Community Radio Service for AM.
It requires the transmitter to be on the ground, ground redials, you can't be on the second floor, and there is a gray area as to if you can even run that antenna wire that comes with the Talking House transmitter.
Transmitter manufacturers should be all over this one to put an end to it ASAP. I'll contact Dan Braverman if I can and see what I can stir up to get a barrage of folks to make sure this does not pass. Its an unfair disadvantage to all hobbyists nation wide (Unless you live on flat land and own the land/home you live in).
|
|
|
|
Post by mighty1650 on Apr 10, 2017 11:57:06 GMT
In all fairness, its not fair to your fellow apartment dwellers to have to put up with YOUR RF that isn't following well established RF guidelines.
Even just 5 watts can be RF hell on many consumer devices. (Who Remembers the old CBs blasting in over speakers and TV sets?)
Edit: On the CBs, I should note the linear amps cause the issue which tend to be 100watts. My experience is a 5 watt FM transmitter that caused RF issues.
|
|
|
|
Post by Druid Hills Radio on Apr 10, 2017 12:32:58 GMT
I don't how to respond to all of this. Much is supposition, technically inaccurate and mostly dreamland.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2017 14:33:20 GMT
I don't know how many times this can be stated.
The FCC doesn't care about fairness to hobby broadcasting. They DO care, amongst other issues, about limiting interference to existing licensed stations. That's why Part 15 exists in the form that it does.
If you're going to come up with a proposal for hobby broadcasting, you have to recognize that what YOU want is immaterial. You have to demonstrate to the FCC and other interested parties that it will not negatively affect them, and that, in fact, it is a positive, or at the worst, neutral. If you cannot do that, it will not succeed.
That's why I maintain that obtaining permission to use white space frequencies, with white space certified devices, is the best possibility for success. The FCC has strictly defined the technical specifications for white space certification to limit interference, and hobby broadcasting can just glom onto that work.
All you really have to do in the proposal is to come up reasons (that the FCC would agree with) that the public needs and would support this form of broadcasting.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2017 15:18:55 GMT
The Flaw In the Hobby Radio Dream
Mighty 1650 said: "Even just 5 watts can be RF hell on many consumer devices."
Why haven't I been taking into account the fact that Mighty has just pointed out?
Even less than 1 Watt can overload the front end of a nearby radio... when my AMT5000 is set up in the 200 mW to 300 mW range a table radio 10-feet away from the transmitter gets crushed with distortion from RF overload!
THAT'S the reason part 15 AM is limited to 100 mW!
THAT'S the reason licensed transmitters are out in open spaces or in industrial areas...
We have a "grandfathered" 5 kW station here that was in a farming area when it was built in the 1920s but is now surrounded by a city and everyone including me has a problem with RF interference from that station.
THAT'S why running a radio station from a home or apartment cannot be permitted to use enough power to reach the far distance... it must be kept weak to protect nearby dwellers.
Call it part 15 or call it hobby radio, the AM power levels will NOT be going up because it's obviously not a workable idea.
|
|
|
|
Post by mark on Apr 10, 2017 15:52:56 GMT
What Carl said is true for AM and FM but Thelegacy also made a good point, that the lousy radios are also to blame for the RF interference. My BETS-1 Decade MS-100 transmitter can be beside a cheap lousy radio and it overloads the tuner and wipes some other stations off and is heard all over but do the same with a high quality radio like a car or a hi-fi quality tuner/radio and this doesn't happen at all, even 2 feet away.
Some of the problem is what people listen on and even regular commercial strong stations on a garbage radio with useless selectivity and image rejection of other stations are heard all over the band let alone a part 15/BETS-1 transmitter.
This is the big reason in a car there are so many stations you get even beside strong ones that don't exist on a regular radio. There should be a better standard of quality in home or portable receivers.
Mark
|
|
