|
Post by End80 on Jan 27, 2017 11:39:52 GMT
I guess I'm mostly directing this question to Carl because I know he's first hand familiar with both of them.. I'm interested to hear your observations of comparisons between the two. Although I realize the 5000 is capable of operating as a class E transmitter, but I'm lost on what the significance of that is, but I'm not really asking for an explanation. What I really want to know is how the two compare in operation (5000 vs 3000).
By simply looking at the pictures I can see the 5000 appears more elaborate, but it's also well over twice the price of the 3000 model. Also, I believe you have only used your 'winattenas' on yours, but I assume you've considered (as I have also) assembling a base loaded antennas before but chose not to.. I probably would have already if I had not already had my Rangemaster ...
Ahh.. I'm just thinking aloud now and losing track of the reason I'm posting! The question is; What is the biggest difference you notice between the two models, do they both sound as good as each other? With only the wire antenna do you notice any appreciable difference in range? And anything other you would like to offer.
Images from the SStran website..
AMT5000:
AMT3000:
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2017 14:29:11 GMT
Good Morning From Here
Hello End 80 and everyone. The SSTran Transmitters are one of my favorite subjects so I may talk a lot!
End80 is correct about the setup I've had... using my own "Wintennas" as the antenna systems I've used.
I own 2-AMT3000s and 1-AMT5000.
In the near future I'll be ordering and building another AMT5000 from the kit, but I would not hesitate to order a pre-built unit from the gentleman here in my hometown that offers that option and which Jim Henry has talked about.
The original comparison testing I did between the two types of transmitter was a few years ago and all the reports are somewhere in the back-threads at part15_us, and my memory of how I made those tests is no longer clear, but I don't think I had yet built a loading coil for the AMT3000 which means the comparison would only have compared the AMT3000 in its simple form using the internal output inductors.
I also don't believe I had installed ground radials of any kind for the original tests, so the ranges I achieved were limited by two factors:
1. The "Wintenna" uses a metal window frame as part of the antenna with vertical wires attached top and bottom on the inside/outside, the transmitter being indoors. The advantage is both indoor and outdoor coverage but the disadvantage is that stucco metal mesh inside the back wall causes signal absorbing capacitance;
2. Because at that time I had no ground radials the signals were further limited. I do not remember if I had any kind of true grounding.
Under those limited circumstances the AMT3000 reached under 300-feet and the AMT5000 reached under 500-feet, demonstrating the greater efficiency of the AMT5000.
Today the transmitters are configured as follows with also results that favor the AMT5000:
The AMT5000 is in the same rear Wintenna but with two ground radials attached under the flooring.. one end running south under the soil in the back yard, the other end running north into the basement and along the I-beam.
The AMT3000 is attached to a front wall Wintenna (no stucco mesh) with the added loading coil which I built and the ground is clamped to the I-Beam in the basement which grounds to electrical ground of the building but with no radials.
The result is that the AMT5000 reaches out to nearly 1,000-feet in the east/west/north and more (unmeasured) toward the south.
The AMT3000 is very strongly resonant everywhere in the building but for an unknown reason does not radiate well outdoors and is good to less than 100-feet. I plan to experiment with improving this.
I hope I thought of everything... if not I will be back to add more.
OH YES, THE AUDIO!
BOTH transmitters have the same excellent audio quality, a formula PhilB the inventor has mastered!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2017 14:40:23 GMT
About the AMT5000 Internal Loading Coil
Recalling from input from PhilB, inventor of the AMT5000, at the time of my original comparison tests several years ago, there would be no real reason to use a different (external) loading coil with the AMT5000 because the included internal loading coil is of high quality which probably can't be improved.
However, it IS possible to bypass the internal loading coil by jumper in the AMT5000 and use a self-built coil for anyone who prefers to do so.
|
|
|
Post by station8 on Jan 27, 2017 16:00:10 GMT
Howdy you all: First off I would like a sstran 3000 myself as well for testing.
I do own a sstran 5000.
Now a Fet output is suppose to have 85% more efficiency then a bipolar ( non or PNP ) transistor
Which I think personally is a load of hog wash !
In all my testing I found npn bipolar transistor to preform better this is my opinion !
Carl great test on the sstran 3000 ver. 5000 !!!!
Let me give you some advice from when I have tested 7 various Am tx here, I found you
Really need to build the antenna system for the tx or you will NOT get an accurate comparison in the range test
Even if you use the same antenna on various/different am tx.
I have personally tested the talking house 5.0 and the I.A.m Am tx here with the same complete setup
Except changing the transmitter out and you know theses are sister tx to each other. ( like the sstran 3000/5000 )!
This what I got in range the Talking House 5.0 gave me 4 mile in range !!
The I.A.M. transmitter lucky to give me 2 mile even when I turned up the power pot control full!!!
( Note when I turned the power pot up full on the I.a.m tx I put on meter with dummy load and showed the Same power level as the original talking house 5.0 power output on meter. )
Make you think that modifications are always good think again about that !!!
I worked in a electronic industry field for for 14 years I seen software work and NOT work first hand As well as modifications to electronic unit as well as antenna systems work or NOT work as well !!
Keep in mind there is a difference in real world test ver. Software test when I personally talked to the FCC I was told by the agent they use the software as a guild line they know it can be wrong !!
Just some opinion and advice here I'm just and average Joe here who can figure thing out !
So before you guys say one tx is better then the other please do a good test !!
Have a great day station 8
|
|
|
Post by End80 on Jan 27, 2017 16:13:30 GMT
I didn't know that you got round to building an antenna for your 3000. But as for the 5000; I've just not ever really looked at the new Sstran until pulling up these pictures displayed, but now notice the internal loading coil (much like the one in the Rangemaster) which the 3000 doesn't have, so that explains Jim comment (in the streaming thread I think) about him choosing the 5000 because it simplified the antenna system installation... I just browsed over to the SStran site again and it states: "The tapped toroid and trimmer combination provide the capability to tune a variety of antennas such as the supplied 118" wire, a 102" CB whip antenna, or a 118" copper or aluminum pipe antenna of various diameters." - The 3000 doesn't say that, but provides instructions for building one, although I never really understood why a whip couldn't be used in place of the 3000s wire antenna as well... a whip instead of a wire - why not? I know it won't perform as well as a loading coil one would, but it seems it would perform identical to the supplied wire antenna, so that's why I really don't get it.
The 5000 also emphasizes "A good earth ground connection is crucial for proper operation of a wire or vertical antenna" - But that's really a given for any transmitter.
|
|
|
Post by End80 on Jan 27, 2017 16:19:38 GMT
station8 A four mile range? You know... part of that story is missing
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2017 16:28:50 GMT
Whips and Wires
End80 just said this a moment ago: "...a whip instead of a wire - why not? I know it won't perform as well as a loading coil one would, but it seems it would perform identical to the supplied wire antenna."
My opinion is that a whip would work the same as a wire except for having a slightly larger diameter which would just slightly improve the bandwidth of the antenna... but I have not noticed a bandwidth problem with a wire... if you have 10 kHz audio there is no reason for more bandwidth... I guess.
I think different types of metal have more or less conductivity (speed of current/voltage flowing through the metal) but at only 3-meters length I would expect this to be of hair-thin importance.
One thing PhilB did which is very helpful at part 15 is his output impedances are expressly high so the RF output will match a short antenna.
The transmitters with 50-ohm outputs are using the industry standard for professional transmitters that expect to see antennas of at least 1/4 wavelength. But when a 50-ohm output needs to drive a 3-meter length there is a huge impedance mismatch which can only be made-up with a tuning circuit which loses some of the power as heat in the coil.
|
|
|
Post by End80 on Jan 27, 2017 16:41:43 GMT
That must somehow relate to why the 5000 says 118" for a wire or copper or aluminum pipe, but only 102" for a whip? This is all much over my head. That's why I so prefer 'plug-n-play' transmitters.
The only reason I would prefer a whip over a wire is for the sake of simplifying an outdoor install - the whip would stand up by itself and also look better.
|
|
|
Post by station8 on Jan 27, 2017 16:43:55 GMT
Howdy you all: Let see if I can explane it again.
Rich I do remember I did a write up on part 15.us on my setup look under my blog if its still there.
The point I was getting at using the same antenna can give you 2 different results even using the
Amt 3000/5000 from the same manufacturing company !!
Just like t told you above with the Talking house 5.0 / I.A.M am tx I had different results
its because each tx works different in the real world test !
Have a great day station 8
|
|
|
Post by End80 on Jan 27, 2017 17:19:03 GMT
I've always heard that the Talking Houses performance vary from unit to unit even when they're the same exact model.. I guess that's what happens with mass production transmitters, with as many thousands of Talking Houses that have been produced over the last 30 some odd years you know the quality control is bound to vary amongst batches. I suspect the best thing about them is the bargains you can get on those (second hand) FCC certified ready out of the box transmitters. The 5.0 and IAM models appear to have a much better reputation and audio then their predecessors.
Is anyone aware of a marketed realtor transmitter (something like the Talking House) that was made in the 1970s? When I was a teenager in Colorado I know they were commonly used the newly constructed subdivisions, because my sister and I used to ride our bikes around and tune our radio into whatever frequency the sign in the front yard instructed to listen to a recorded message describing the new homes amenities, and there was a lot of them, their would be at least one transmitting house on each block of the area. The Talking House didn't come out till the early 80s, and I can find no indications of anything similar from the 70s in my searches.. So I'm trying to find a clue to what transmitters were being used. Anyone have an idea?
|
|
|
Post by Druid Hills Radio on Jan 27, 2017 17:56:29 GMT
That must somehow relate to why the 5000 says 118" for a wire or copper or aluminum pipe, but only 102" for a whip?
My short answer, though most likely wrong: CB whips come at 102". 118" approaches 3 meters.
|
|
|
Post by station8 on Jan 29, 2017 13:42:53 GMT
Hi Carl: Here is some more information for you ok .
Carl I did achieve 2 mile with the sstran 5000 with tx sitting on top a 6 foot fiberglass latter mounted at ground level,
The base of my home made copper ant was also 6 foot of ground, Antenna length was below 6 foot in length,
Now again NO GROUND ATTACHED!
Used a 25 foot long 3 prong power cord to the tx site, used original 2 prong power supply with 5000 tx.
Used the internal tunner on the 5000 tx !
All power line are from 100 to 300 + feet away from antenna site.
The nearest metal for any reflection was 50 + feet away !
So this is the end of the sstran 5000 report !!
I used to use a metal window screen antenna back in the late 70,& 80 in a test on my am tx,
The results where very bad range with a metal window screen, But I did better with the original wire antenna !
So I'm not a window fan.
Now as a ground system I never had one at all !
The transmitter I used in the test in the 70 & 80 now don't laugh to hard was a Radio Shack science fair kit that cost me $7.95 Back in the days only capable of 50 mW out, top end !
My farthest range with a wire ant that came with it was 10 foot long 22AWG was over 1/4 miles !
Now the home made copper antenna out of house wire place up 20 feet in air I achevie 3 miles with some dead spots !
And again NO GROUND SYSTEMS !
You guys can achieve range without a ground,But you must build the antenna correct or you will get lousy range results !
Have fun station 8
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2017 13:51:27 GMT
Jeff Station8 is the ALPB Man of the Year
Jeff has collected more Part 15 transmitters than anyone you will ever know.
Jeff does more antenna design and testing than all part 15 hobbyists put together.
Now I'm thinking maybe the Wintenna that I use is holding me back.
Even PhilB the inventor of the AMT5000 said that I need to get the antenna away from walls, wire and metal.
Alright then, the time has come.
|
|
|
Post by thelegacy on Jan 30, 2017 5:53:16 GMT
Hey Carl let us know what happens when you try a different antenna than your Wintenna. I do know that when I tried my Talking House AM Transmitter even on a external home made ATU on the wire the range sucked wind. I was very disappointed in the range. a mere 600 Ft hardly worth the hassle of it all.
I've heard people claim a mile or even close to two miles on this transmitter but with the wire I can say unless your up high it won't happen. My house is brick and wood and does not have aluminum siding. So why such horrid range could only be because of that wire that came with it.
I've often wondered what would happen if I were to use a CB antenna and change the coil on it to work better with AM. I got the idea from my new magnet mount FM antenna I'm getting. I won't go into too much detail with that for I don't need to bring those anti-FM's out. Point was it inspired an idea.
What someone needs to come up with is a magnet mount AM antenna for these transmitters that is low profile. You could plug it into an external ATU and be low profile as some doors and windows have enough play to get the coax through. It would be simple and straight forward. We'll see what happens.
|
|
|
Post by station8 on Jan 30, 2017 12:01:44 GMT
Howdy you all: This is for all of you as well,
But is intended for all sstran owner most important.
I' m really NOT going to explained in detail on this site here do to it would be hard to explain by typing
I will talk about this issue at the next ALPB meeting so if curious please make an effort to come and join the ALPB
And anyone can ask me any question you want I'm pretty good about giving information away for free
And everyone likes free !
I hope Bob, Carl, neil , johnny can make it due to I want your opinions on this issue I found ! ( Do to I talk to these guys at every meeting I just want to make sure they will all be there and no one be missing ) !
I would like other peple to place there inputs as well too !!!
So please make meeting to find out my secret !
Have a great day station 8
|
|