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Post by thelegacy on Oct 16, 2016 20:45:17 GMT
IF we got 87.1-87.9 though its close to the FM band and most radio's can tune down there it's technically not the FM band. Thus we'd be away from them. This is going to have to be part of the petition for a Hobby Radio Service.
We've tested using some spectrum analyzing equipment. We still need to rent that Patomac FIM-71 so we get the field strengths for the type of range we want. I'd really like to know the field strength that your friend is running to get his signal into a house a mile away and have full quieting FM Stereo as this is what is needed to meet Album Rock standards for most Real serious minded enthusiast of that Genre to listen.
I was reading on another forum about Z-Rock and how people listened to them on AM. We had one in Heart, Michigan on 105.5 and they played a lot of hard stuff some I'd call Thrash Metal which was different than ordinary Heavy Metal.
I think it could work for Album Rock on AM only if AM Stereo transmitters and Radio's were more available.
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Post by mighty1650 on Oct 18, 2016 19:30:19 GMT
But what I can't understand is why even commercial stations have these crappy 0db antennas? Seems to me you get better range by using something different. That's easy, we don't and we can't. Broadcasters can't use those "crappy" antennas, nor would we want too. Have you ever seen a REAL FM array? Typically there are several antennas lined up that we call a "Bay" that adds gain and reduces picket-fencing as well as other issues. What if I told you an FM exciter is seldom set to the "licensed" power and is usually either much higher or lower in power depending on the antenna gain. For Example, our FM translator spits out 782 Watts and is licensed for 250 watts and our Class C FM transmitter pumps out 27.5kW on a 50kW license. When it comes down to it, all FCC licenses are based on field strength and protected contours, same as Part 15 with the exception of .219
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Post by mark on Oct 18, 2016 20:18:01 GMT
Thelegacy...I have some bad news for you. Was in conversation with a knowledgeable person at a Ham/radio store here in Toronto and we were talking about, among other things about radio and the subject came to expanding the FM band and he told me that the old TV frequencies like from 87.1-87.9 etc has been assigned to something else and is being used so I don't think you will get that. I know if you have a radio that tunes from 76-108 you hear nothing below 88.1 but that is assigned to a service and I forget what exactly. Also found out that most police, fire and other communications that used to be in the 112 - 174 MHZ range have gone to a different system so even the old communications receivers can't get the police etc that you used to be able to listen to. BUT...the aviation band still in analog and uses AM as the way of transmission and this is in the area of 125-135 MHZ and an FM transmitter with a bad filtering could interfere with airplane communications with a control tower although you are FM and they are AM so you also may not. I will find online an up to date chart of the current spectrum use that shows every band of frequencies and the use and post it here and on part15.us and Facebook. The space between 108MHZ and 112MHZ is a buffer zone to protect aviation from interference but even that is technically used by some service.
Mark
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 22:49:32 GMT
In Canada and the U.S., as far as I've been able to determine, the only users of 76-88 are TV stations, and licensed wireless microphones. The entire whitespace device initiative being undertaken by both countries is to allow unlicensed devices, such as low power wireless microphones, internet routers, etc., to use the space vacated by TV stations without causing interference to the remaining current licensed users (that's where the geolocation checking, license database, etc. comes in.
In the U.S., the big question is whether unlicensed broadcast transmitters can be considered whitespace devices - they would have to meet all the technical criteria, of course. Given that such a transmitter is virtually identical to a wireless microphone transmitter (potentially minus the microphone), I can't see why not, but you never know. The FCC has excluded specific uses for certain frequencies before this.
In Canada, 76-88 Mhz is to be used for non-broadcasting services (where broadcasting is defined as transmitting to the general public). But just as RSS123 is considered non-broadcasting (because your audience is to those within a confined boundary, such as a mall, or private property), I don't see why something like RSS123 couldn't be done in those frequencies - again, the transmitters would have to meet the whitespace device technical criteria. However, given Canada's predilection for making the simple complicated, I wouldn't be surprised if RSS123 was excluded.
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Post by mighty1650 on Oct 19, 2016 17:19:32 GMT
In Dallas there used to be some paging system scattered between the TV channels that could be heard by many analog tuned TVs, sounded almost like an EDACS system control channel. I seem to recall it being around Channel 5 and 6.
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Post by mark on Oct 19, 2016 18:59:10 GMT
Posted the USA and Canadian RF allocations in a new post.
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Post by thelegacy on Oct 19, 2016 19:48:08 GMT
I'd like to know what 87.1-87.9 is used for then? Every where I've been its clear as a bell and available for Hobby Radio. So if this is a recent change I don't know. But I still think we should look into this issue more deeply.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2016 20:38:09 GMT
From what I can see in those charts, the only official users of 76-88 Mhz in the U.S. are broadcasting and maritime, in Canada broadcasting. Considering that a lot, if not most, of the broadcasting is gone or going, those frequencies are going to be open in most areas (if there is maritime use, it will obviously be only near waterways). That's the reason for the whitespace device initiative.
In my opinion, the thing to do is to get confirmation in the U.S. that whitespace broadcast transmitters would be equivalent to whitespace wireless microphones - and they are (in my opinion), for all intents and purposes. Once that has been accomplished, then unlicensed broadcasting with up to 1 watt would be good to go in those frequencies (assuming, of course, that someone is willing to manufacture said devices, or a wireless microphone with an alternative input such as an RCA or 3/8 inch plug).
I doubt very much that hobbyist broadcasters would have the clout to get dedicated frequencies, but this would still be pretty good. In rural areas, where there are few if any licensed whitespace users, hobbyist broadcasters could probably use that 1 watt that has been talked about.
Potential listeners will still have to get radios that can receive your station. Perhaps sell them at cost? Or give some away as promos? It could also be an interesting business venture for a small business in a rural area served by a hobbyist/community station. As has been pointed out, some radios do receive 87.7 and 87.9, and under the whitespace rules those frequencies would be valid for hobbyist broadcasting if there were no licensed users nearby.
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Post by thelegacy on Oct 19, 2016 21:20:53 GMT
We'll have to try and contact the FCC again and ask about this. I bet we'd have to call the Office of Engineering and technology again and see what they say. I know this has been talked about for quite some time and yet transmitters like the Scoche sold at Wal-Mart cover 87.9.
For the time being I'd bet if it is OK to use 1 Watt and it is considered white space then I bet (if the transmitter is clean) you could get away with it. But as soon as a certified white space transmitter was made and could be Stereo I'd recommend using that instead. This way everyone winds.
If anyone else gets a hold of the FCC and finds out please let us know.
Best Regards.
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