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Post by Admin on Sept 11, 2016 2:29:29 GMT
A tip of the hat to Mark Herberman for supplying a link to the Canadian BETS Rules.
You'll find it on every page of The ALPB website under the "Low Power Broadcasting Links" on the upper right side of the pages.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2016 14:53:11 GMT
Canada's rules are very confusing, mostly because we have 2 regulatory agencies involved with broadcasting.
Industry Canada is concerned with the technical aspects (frequency, interference, spectral purity) while the CRTC is concerned with the broadcasting content. Industry Canada licenses are relatively easy to obtain - the CRTC, not so much, as it also looks at your business plan and determines if you have the right to exist (in the public interest).
So Canada splits its unlicensed low power transmitting laws into 2 sections - one specifically for broadcasting (i.e., anything that the general public can listen into) and non-broadcasting.
BETS-1 covers unlicensed, low power broadcasting. RSS210 covers the non-broadcasting rules (for example, if you are just transmitting around the house or your property, and the transmission is intended for your personal use only) and is essentially identical to Part 15.
The BETS-1 rules are different than those of RSS210 (and Part 15). You MUST use a BETS-1 certified transmitter, or obtain a TAC (a technical acceptance certificate) for your transmitter if it is not certified.
To make matters more interesting, there are NO BETS-1 certified AM transmitters - the ProCaster, Talking Sign and a few others are only RSS210 certified, so technically you cannot use them for broadcasting.
BETS-1 is only concerned with field strength, both for FM and AM (unlike Part 15, which also has the 3 meter rule for AM - RSS210 also has this rule, but remember, you can't broadcast under RSS210).
BETS-1 allows a field strength for FM of 100uv/m at 30 meters, and for AM 250uv/m at 30 meters.
If you use a BETS certified transmitter (or obtain that TAC), you do not require a CRTC license. That's the other kicker, and why you cannot broadcast with an RSS210 certified transmitter - there are NO CRTC exemptions for RSS210, so theoretically you would need a CRTC license if you did use a ProCaster for broadcasting.
Of course, you could always attempt to obtain a TAC for a ProCaster - it could probably be tuned down to meet the BETS-1 AM rules.
See what I mean? Part 15 is relatively simple by comparision.
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Post by thelegacy on Sept 21, 2016 21:58:48 GMT
So basically your Range for FM is 348 feet with a super strong signal.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2016 22:49:20 GMT
Loading Ramp Reception
I opened the loading ramp to my brain and carefully read DaveC's description of the Canadian rules...
Does anyone in the entire Canadian government understand those rules?
Are there inspectors who can keep it straight without sitting on their horse looking things up?
If it were me I'd go for BETS1 because I don't see any point in "serving the community", but I'm selfish and self-centered.
Part 15 is absolutely simple by contrast, and so are Americans.
"Americans" is something we say here in the Homeland, even though Canada is also in North America and are Americans too.
A direct hit by an asteroid could do wonders. I mean, can't you picture rules and regulations flying everywhere? I'm going outside now for a look up at space.
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Post by mark on Sept 22, 2016 5:09:34 GMT
Reply to Davidc moderator
Always wondered which is better for AM...250uV/M@30 meters or 100mW with 10ft antenna? which would get you farther in range?
There's also a grey area for "broadcasting". I can use a Decade(FM) which is BETS-1 certified and a Broadcastvision(FM) which is IC certified(probably RSS-210) and both get the same range approx. and have them both sitting in my house by the window, one or the other. I can then set up programming to sound like a radio station for "my use" in the house and the yard and I can also be heard around the neighborhood...unintentionally of course.
What's the difference? Both transmitters have passed a IC accepted test facility and are legal products with no license needed. A CRTC license is not needed for both categories.
So, what would "broadcasting" be? Same with the Procaster, set up as the manual describes.
@ Thelegacy....BETS-1 is on paper 4x the USA allowed power BUT...that's only on paper. In the field according to Timinbovey's tests it takes around 3000 to 4000 uV/M@ 3 meters to get a 100uV signal at 30 meters.
So BETS-1 will get you at least half a mile with a GOOD radio. In fact Artisan said he got almost a kilometer in the car with BETS-1.
Mark
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Post by thelegacy on Sept 22, 2016 8:54:36 GMT
1KM is only 0.6 miles and the Hole House 3 with lightning bolt on will get you almost a mile. We have a member of the New Radio Revolution that has the experimental license so now we can talk about Range on FM Legally now that this is the case. We did tell the FCC that it was to collect Data for a separate service for Hobby Radio Broadcasting.
Now Canada also has that 1 Watt event broadcasting feature as well. With that being the case we'll be fighting for that 1 Watt in rural areas.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2016 18:06:53 GMT
BES-1 will get you around half a mile with a good radio, AND the antenna up high, so you have line of sight. Typically a lot less than that(I'm getting 200 meters +- with my ground level installation now, and that's to a car radio.
I haven't noticed much of a difference between a BETS-1 certified transmitter (a Decade MS-100) and an RSS210 certified one (an older Landmark) either. Neither gets great range with a typical install to a typical radio.
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Post by mark on Sept 22, 2016 19:26:19 GMT
A question for Davidc....Are you "Artisan" radio? Hard to figure out since people use different names on different forums.
I figured out on Facebook you go by your "real" name.
In follow up to my other post about broadcasting, besides the grey area of "broadcasting", would it be the CRTC or Industry Canada who would have the authority to decide that?
The Procaster which is certified RSS-210(same as part 15)with 100mW to the final and 91/2 ft. antenna set up as instructed with outdoor install with ground be considered "own use"? Of course not...the intent is to "broadcast" to a large area!
I think the CRTC and IC would have a headache trying to figure this out!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2016 21:38:45 GMT
Yes, that is I.
I believe that it is Industry Canada that determines if you are broadcasting, as it's their rules that split Part 15 into broadcasting (BETS-1) and non-broadcasting (RSS210).
However, there are few spectrum managers (that's what they call their equivalent of an FCC inspector) that understand BETS-1 (and for that matter, RSS210).
I'm not sure about the CRTC, but they reserve the right to demand that any broadcaster obtain a CRTC license, regardless of the BETS-1 exemptions. There are no exemptions for RSS210, because you're not supposed to use it (and anything certified under RSS210) for broadcasting. You're in no-mans territory if you use a ProCaster for broadcasting, as both Industry Canada and the CRTC could come after you.
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Post by mark on Sept 23, 2016 23:08:33 GMT
Very interesting! So, I wonder what Chez Radio would say to this as the procaster is sold as no licence needed with the outdoor set up. Looks like there's really no AM broadcasting here at all unless you take on the task of getting it approved for BETS. Chez Radio should get a BETS-1 certificate.
Well, I have the Decade and the Broadcastvision and maybe I'll just stick to the Decade as it has the BETS-1 certification. I'd say the Decade has a small edge as the antenna can be adjusted to the frequency as certified rather than having one 22" antenna fixed.
Don't think the CRTC would demand a licence unless there was a good reason, like not keeping it clean or preaching politics or religion or hate and getting complaints.
But under BETS-1 AM isn't restricted to a 3 meters for antenna and ground. Maybe the BETS certification would be better.
Mark
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2016 23:37:02 GMT
Canadian Enforcement Questions
Canada is huge.
No doubt the big cities would be somewhat easy to monitor for activity on the frequencies, but in the vast outlying territories it is hard to imagine that any low power radio would matter because the residencies are probably far apart... or maybe I'm only fantasizing.
I'll go to Wikipedia and get educated.
or, maybe you guys in Canada know something about it.
Darn. That didn't come off well.
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Post by mark on Sept 24, 2016 0:05:46 GMT
Yes Carl, you are right....But also if you are just broadcasting to wilderness there'd be no point to broadcasting so any BETS-1 or RSS-210 would all be considered for your own use.
But like in the USA if you live in the country you are still in some civilization with some other residences around to broadcast to. But of course away from major places like southern Ontario and the greater Toronto area for one example, there is lots of space on the dial and no airports or communications so yes, unless there was complaints from a local radio station who thinks you are stealing listeners then this would be much less of a problem.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2016 0:29:11 GMT
Makes Good Sense
Very much appreciate the portrayal, Mark, of the comparison between highly populated and sparsely populated parts of the country.
That much of it is probably common to both nations.
For the remote resident way far away from other people low power radio might not have any hope of being heard except by the station owner, which you already said.
Maybe that's why lately, here in the big city, I've been looking at houses based on how high they are which might make great transmitter locations.
But even with plenty of residents nearby the question is... do they listen to radio? Will they like our station?
Keeps the hobby interesting.
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Post by thelegacy on Oct 10, 2016 4:06:57 GMT
We are working very hard on getting a separate service for hobby broadcasting. But I guarantee you were going to ask for more than BETS-1.
A little food for thought though there are already a bunch of transmitter out in the United States that are past part 15 levels. The reason they don't try and stop them is because the United States does not want to start any crap with China. Think about it it kinda got mad they could put all their Electronics from the United States and put this country back in the Stone Age period it's not fantasy it's sheer fact. So sooner or later somebody has to be smart and do the right thing.
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Post by mark on Oct 10, 2016 5:01:21 GMT
Michele Bradley at Facebook posted a good guide to unlicensed radio rules for some different countries and was surprised to see that even in China the transmitters that the Chinese companies are making are illegal there too! And the Chinese gov't has been cracking down lately. So they can make them, like FMUser and others and sell them but you can't use them there or here...strange!
The Rangmaster and other branded ones are just FMUsers made with another brand on them.
Yes the USA, Canada, and probably the majority of Europe are in debt to China so if any crap was to be started with China and they said OK we want the money you owe us we're up the creek without
a paddle...or maybe one broken paddle!!
Mark
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