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Post by thelegacy on Aug 11, 2016 2:24:27 GMT
Bruce you need to do it. Especially C-Quam AM stereo. Get a Ramsey AM 25 and modify it for AM Stereo. I'm working on this idea myself. C quam AM stereo is the way to go for AM and it could bring you a lot of listeners.
There are videos showing how to synchronize in am Network on YouTube.
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craigf
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Post by craigf on Aug 11, 2016 2:45:29 GMT
Popular DemandMrBruce your radio network is the perfect role model for other part 15 radio stations wanting to grow an audience. This website needs you, the other website needs you even though you no longer need it, and the listeners... it's all about the listeners. I will pledge to carry your programs part time on KHZ AM 1640 and KDX-FM 89.9 the "Experimental Indoor Antenna Stations" launching soon. We're one patch cord away from sign on. If you don't do this you'll be throwing away your life. Not being one to see MrBruce throw his life away, I also encourage and pledge to carry a portion of his programming if he so desires. I toy with the idea of a streaming network that is designed as a back-haul only to many different transmitters all carrying the same stream. A multi-point STL using the internet via semi secured login, linked to appliances transmitting the original programming. Note: ***** I have seen a post somewhere else on Part 15 that proposed a similar idea, I am only pondering it. Take credit for the idea if it is yours! Would this qualify as an on air Part 15 broadcast for royalty licensing at this point? At the least can it be supported in a debate? I foresee a network comprised of perhaps Raspberry PIs (or whatever the current mini-puter is) and either a part 15 am or CCrane part 15 Fm combined as decoder/transmitter appliance. Range is gained by increasing appliances in small footprint areas, no syncing, and hopefully, no interference with existing stations, since we are going for distance from a single transmitter. Utilize the most modern efficient streaming encoding to maximize bandwidth. The appliance should be certified to be in compliance with part 15 regulations. When someone creates this and is selling them on Amazon, buy me a beer...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2016 3:13:55 GMT
What Little Is Known
Probably quite a few have pictured the idea of stringing low power stations together in neighborhoods and towns for improved coverage, but only two people I know about have done it for real.
The first one I knew of was "The Crow" who later became RETRO RADIO.
The more recent example we discovered is MrBruce and his fleet of linked transmitters.
A Part 15 station in Pahrump Nevada was contemplating a Part 15 network but he ended up with an LPFM.
My only thoughts along those lines have been mental exercises trying to visualize the timing which becomes critical when synchronizing multiple stations.
Oh, Part 15 Engineer at one time proposed a long wave network of stations.
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Post by thelegacy on Aug 11, 2016 7:04:13 GMT
At least Long Wave would have some range. Maybe use the Long Wave as an STL to the transmitters and have the long wave be Carrier current although greater distances can be achieved with Long Wave.
To still obtain that FM quality sound for a FM network you'd have to somehow use FM modulation on the Long Wave band. Since AM doesn't have the fidelity (Unless you use C-Quam AM Stereo it will be hard to do that with FM.
One thing that helped Mr. Bruce is the height of the apartment building part of his network was in. I suppose too one could look at 2.4 Ghz or 5Ghz as a STL or even 900 Mhz as well since there is some part 15 space there.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2016 12:09:19 GMT
Juggling Numbers
There are some interesting decisions that long wave broadcasters in America will face.
There is no set standard as to bandwidth on long wave, therefore it is possible to choose either 9 kHz (as in Europe) or 10 kHz (U.S. medium wave standard).
This poses a complication because listeners will need to adjust their radios to whichever bandwidth is being used. 10 kHz is preferred for the slightly wider bandwidth.
Modulation on long wave can be anything, AM, FM, or other. But the bandwidth will still be either 9 kHz or 10 kHz. Therefore the audio fidelity will be limited to 5 kHz or less.
If FM is used we are talking about narrow-band FM, so (repeating what I said in the last paragraph) audio quality would still be limited. The one advantage of using FM is the receiver would produce less of the random noise picked up by amplitude modulation reception.
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craigf
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Post by craigf on Aug 11, 2016 14:48:41 GMT
What Little Is KnownProbably quite a few have pictured the idea of stringing low power stations together in neighborhoods and towns for improved coverage, but only two people I know about have done it for real. The first one I knew of was "The Crow" who later became RETRO RADIO. The more recent example we discovered is MrBruce and his fleet of linked transmitters. A Part 15 station in Pahrump Nevada was contemplating a Part 15 network but he ended up with an LPFM. My only thoughts along those lines have been mental exercises trying to visualize the timing which becomes critical when synchronizing multiple stations. Oh, Part 15 Engineer at one time proposed a long wave network of stations. Very true, that timing/sync issues would be a concern if seamless radio reception was the goal. I haven't dove into the concept of GPS timing systems for linking yet. I would like to hear more about that from someone who has done it or at least seen it.
Perhaps, I can create something with a potato and a timex that function in a similar fashion... A very large potato?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2016 15:12:15 GMT
Craigf's Offer
Craigf has offered to do something: "Perhaps, I can create something with a potato and a timex that function in a similar fashion... A very large potato?"
We don't know what craigf is actually willing to do with potatos but if we play it right we might end up with potato chips.
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Post by thelegacy on Aug 11, 2016 16:31:05 GMT
Solar power could be used to power the repeater transmitters. I don't know how those Barix (I think it was called) boxes work but I've heard it somehow uses long range WiFi and you type in the IP address into the interface to the boxes. One could have one main router and it don't even have to be connected to the Internet. You can use StreamWhatYouHear which is a program that sends your signal into the LAN and anyone on your Local Area Network can tune in. This is perfect for a low budget way of repeating the signal. I've seen some WiFi go a lot farther than a compliant part 15 FM Transmitter goes so it could be done if you got your neighbors to go along with it. Pay them a little fee and I'm sure they could find a room to put your transmitter and repeater box in.
The trick would be to get a business to allow you to put one of the repeater boxes in. I could have done this at say the 7-11 and boosted my signal to reach closer to the Deltiville market. The Clarksberry Church probably would not allow an Album Rock station repeater in there because it could be against what their religious beliefs. Some Christian religions are Dead Set against Rock N Roll. I've actually ran into that with our family church when I was practicing piano while waiting for the church to start and they really got mad when I played Brian Adams - Straight From The Heart on the piano. Then I tried to play the start of Journey - Separate Ways.
There was a few shops along a strip mall I could try and repeat the signal from, but getting a Full Quieting Stereo signal to a portable Radio would be a hard thing to try and do. My town once I got the signal to some businesses may allow the signal to keep repeating by adding transmitters all along to reach the market. The object would be so a person could drive all the way to the market while listening to The Legacy on their Radio on 100.1 FM.
AM would be harder because most folks won't allow a long antenna to be put up. If I could see well I could try carrier current transmitters as repeaters ALL IN C-Quam AM Stere (No mono for Album Rock). The folks who own GM or Oldsmobile cars could tune to 1630 AM and hear some great stuff and be amazed when it separated and was Stereo on AM. The slogan would be "Your Rocking with The Legacy the station that brought Real Music and Stereo to AM!"
Since Ramsey don't make the AM 25 anymore you better hurry and buy them as they can be modified for C Quam. The Talking House you have to cut the old audio board out of it and then splice your C-Quam board into it. Maybe make an external jack that goes into your C-Quam board and finally out the RF of that transmitter. But the Ramsey I know will beat the pants out of the Talking House.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2016 18:22:14 GMT
Finding a Way
Troy has the right idea... it's a matter of mixing and matching all the new technology we have to use for building communications systems.
Even the church might be doable if you tell the pastor he can plug his public address amplifier in on Sunday morning and broadcast his sermon.
Start out by building a test setup so you can find out what works and how to improve it.
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Post by MrBruce on Aug 11, 2016 18:24:47 GMT
Just as a technical side note.
WXTZ did not have sync issues since the buildings were too far from each other to have a solid FM signal across a large area.
We were, which I want to add is illegal to my total understanding, used 87.9MHz as the FM frequency.
Down there, there was no co-channel interference, no intermod issues.
You don't even want to hear the mess my part 15 FM signal goes through in the normal FM channels.
I seriously want to do a video and post it on youtube showing the interference that 107.7 causes to the channel I would have to use here, but for me to virtually put you in my location and have you hear the exact same thing we hear here in my city, I would need a television production crew with expensive audio equipment to get to you people out there the same thing we hear here.
107.7 plays BASSY as hell HIP HOP music, that splatters the upper FM band, all you can hear is the BASS which is over processed to make it vibrate. The singer's voices sound like they have a personal vibrator inserted in their asses at top speed and it may sound good to the thug community, but to me, I think it is noise pollution. But, hey, they have a license from the FCC and can do as they wish, specially because the station owner, owns several stations in my area.
So in reality, I do not broadcast on FM at the moment, because of the intermod issues with WWRX 107.7MHz their audio signal tears up any open channel I would have to use to avoid broadcasting on a locally used channel.
Bruce.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2016 19:31:38 GMT
What I Meant Was
When I talked about "synchronizing" I wasn't thinking about the transmitter signals...
I was talking about synchronizing clocks and the start and stop of network feeds.
Large network stations have calibrated clock-audio systems so that when network gives a 1-minute "donut-hole" at 2:50:00 PM EDT for a local spot insertion the network and the stations see the exact same time on their clocks and their automation systems are run from the clock so that the local commercial "drops-in" right at the exact time and switches back to the net at the right time.
Must of us don't have that sort of precision timing built into our systems.
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Post by bluebucketradio on Aug 12, 2016 10:31:56 GMT
I agree, bring it back then i would maybe have more content to share with my limited coverage area. 1/4 acre of radio ranch where the listeners all live at the ranch and don't like the big stations we have around here, i even have a kid here (one of my daughters) that showed an interest in bringing my station back on the air full time instead of when i get new shows and only broadcast for 24 hours.
Yeah, i've been slacking.
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Post by bluebucketradio on Aug 12, 2016 10:35:48 GMT
Carl said: Must of us don't have that sort of precision timing built into our systems.
We kind of do, although i haven't messed with it, Zararadio has DTMF tones, but since i haven't had much sleep explaining how this would work is not something i want to tackle right now.
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Post by thelegacy on Aug 12, 2016 19:27:41 GMT
Oh yea I could have a relay system made for the church so that when the minister wants to start a sermon he or she just starts the PA system and the station drops off the Album Rock feed from the original Legacy programming. So during Sundays from the church to the market you year the service and he could invite others to come to the Clarksberry church.
I'll have to get to know them and see. Even if I had to use Belkins the ones that actually had the full 250 uV/m at 3 meters then I could get my signal at least every 200 Ft and thus keep the full quieting Stereo. Since the Belkins are not expensive it may be usable. I think the C Crane could be made to run solar since it takes up little power.
In my area I'm lucky for not to be able to use 100.1 FM which is right in the middle of the band so people will find that station by messing around really fast and could be Deltavill's #1 Album Rock station.
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Post by MrBruce on Aug 12, 2016 21:21:19 GMT
My 3 cents worth.
Frist cent spent: TheLegacy does have a point about using a channel in the mid section of the FM broadcast dial. When I am with people who channel surf, I often notice they dwell in the 97MHz to 105MHz area of their dial. I notice once they get near 105MHz they tend to push the down button and once getting near the 97MHz area they start pushing the up button. There are local stations above 105MHz and below 97MHz but for some unknown odd reason, they hang in the mid band.
Second cent spent: When I brought up the syncing of FM transmitters I was answering Craigf and his statement: "Very true, that timing/sync issues would be a concern if seamless radio reception was the goal".
In reply to that comment, I stated we did not have sync issues because our FM carriers did not overlap each other to cover a larger area.
My Final third cent spent: Sync would have been an issue, if we did try to triangulate the transmitters, like the cellular telephone network is set up, we would have had serious sync issues, because we used the Internet to deliver the actual audio programming to the transmitter sites. None of the delivery protocols were equal to another, even at my house, I would listen to the stream on the same service the stream was being sent out on and there were different degrees of time responses even when using various media players.
I am not educated enough to explain with technical words that those more educated would expect to see me typing, but I am explaining it with the knowledge I currently have.
I can best explain it that, when a word is spoken into the microphone, there was varying degrees of time, where the word would come over the receiving computer's sound port, it varied from 2 seconds to 3 minutes at times on just that computer, then when I'd use another device that had access to my internet, it too received the word at a totally different moment in time.
I think everyone here, totally understands my point, my upstream and down stream allowances are on an xtra premium account, so my ISP is not the issue here.
Considerations were made on how to send the signal out via a STL, radio stations around here use the upper UHF band, such as I can receive WCTY 97.7MHz's STL on my Realistic Pro-2006 on 948.000MHz because I am directly in the UHF signal beam, the studio is to my north, the transmitter to my south, they use directional antennas so you have to be right in the signal path to get the transmission.
Now licensed radio stations, have to license their STL as well as their broadcast band transmitters, to start with, we have no license to broadcast anything, so we are a different class of broadcaster. Getting back to my original point, the only way to get a broadcast type entertainment service to different locations would be by using another type of transmitter, that broadcasts FM STEREO SOUND.
Cordless phones and baby monitor devices do transmit in FM audio, but also have limited FM modulation abilities, they really do not have a full spectrum audio quality because they were made to carry a very basic voice communication. We experimented with several baby monitors including one Radio Shack sold. The audio quality was awful for FM broadcasting. Now, since I still have yet to get my Chris Cuff built AM C-Quam Stereo transmitter up to legal part 15, I have no clue about AM broadcast modulation issues using a baby monitor as the STL. Perhaps once I get that AM transmitter to transmit more than 10 to 15 feet from a 102 inch whip, I'll experiment more with AM.
We also have to take into consideration, the difference between using a baby monitor for its intended purpose or if using it as an intentional broadcast STL might violate its legal purpose. There is a difference between monitoring your baby's room and using it to broadcast with. But the real question is, what does the FCC have to say about that? Do they consider that misusing the device by using it for a purpose it was not authorized for?
People have mentioned in part 15 related websites, using parts of the old Citizens Band for a STL. Truth is and anyone who has owned a CB Radio that uses 11 meters knows of idiots who broadcast music over their CB radios to piss other people off. I know of many cases including my own case where the FCC has come calling on those violators.
Now, since I said, the words "my own case" in the paragraph above, let me stick my foot in my mouth here with a true story that happened to me.
Years ago, at the young age of 9, as a school field day, we visited the local AM broadcast station WICH 1310 AM Norwich CT, I was sooooo impressed by how things were done in a REAL radio station, that I gained an interest in radio stations and I wanted one.
MrBruce's first radio station was oddly called WICH, LOL I did NOT know you can't use another station's call letters, but hey I was a nine year old kid and had no clue about those things. MY transmitter was (Brand name unknown now) a channel 14 (11 meter) (27.125 MHz) 100 milliwatt walkie-talkie bought from a department store as a Christmas present.
I used up a lot of 9 volt batteries keeping that walkie-talkie going and I used the second walkie-talkie as my portable radio to listen in. Now, unfortunately for me, I had a licensed CB'er just up the road from me, he was close enough to me, to hear me on his radio on CB channel 14 (27.125 MHz). This annoyed him and he called WICH to complain that I stole their call letters and he called the FCC.
The FCC did come to town, I know this, because their communications radio and that of the CBers were interfering with one of my radios in the house. I stopped transmitting and found a lot of communications taking place on channel 14 (27.125 MHz). There was people driving up and down my road with antennas on their roofs. Plus a white van, that looked very odd!
The reason they had a hard time finding me, was because, they were looking for an outdoor aerial, not realizing my antenna was attached to the walkie-talkie inside my home. Sadly, they preyed upon a home up the street that had an actual CB antenna on the roof. Since no one would know, I was the culprit, I decided to act innocent and go up the road to observe what was going on.
Of course, they had no clue, who I was, but, I did get to see inside the FCC owned van and it was like nothing I'd seen before. Yes that had a lot of equipment in there that I had not a clue what it was at the time. Since other people's cases are private, I never did find out what happened with the innocent people, who lived at the house. They may not have even had a CB in the house and yet never removed the on roof antenna. It did look rather beat up, so who knows.
So, the moral of my story is, don't assume you can use a baby monitor or the 11 meter band to continuously broadcast on as an STL. Furthermore, if you broadcast as a stereo station, you have to figure out a way to remotely, get the LEFT and RIGHT channels to the stereo transmitter. Baby monitors and CB radios are basically monophonic and I do not believe FM is legal on CB, I will tell you there are tons of CBs that have an FM encoder and decoder, but those are mostly found in export models.
Bruce.
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