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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2018 12:55:36 GMT
Boomer the Astute
Very true Boomer observation: "I like Carl's corporate structure, he can hire himself for any position as needed, fire himself and then hire himself back again."
And Carl truly serves the listener because he is the listener.
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Post by Admin on Apr 5, 2018 18:15:18 GMT
Companies, including radio, used to be a lot different 50 years ago, say, than they are today. I saw the inner workings of a manufacturing company that my father used to work for (as Plant manager). It was independently owned, and yes, while money mattered (if only to stay in business), so did the customers and the employees.
Now everything is about Corporate Executive, stock prices, market share, and beating the other guy. You'll rarely hear anything about doing a good job in the community.
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Post by jimhenry2000 on Apr 6, 2018 4:14:23 GMT
Same here. I just watched it on regular Youtube. Youtube Shows Movies Without RegisteringI watch movies on Youtube everyday and don't sign in or pay. The only time I am asked to log in is if a movie has an adult-only rating. By the way, there is a paid Youtube which shows more movies in the finest technical quality but I haven't joined that.
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Post by jimhenry2000 on Apr 6, 2018 4:18:26 GMT
I can agree at least mostly. While employees still matter to the company I recently retired from, the stock market drives the business. You would think that a company pulling 40% gross profits would be a great business but if it stays static at that and doesn't grow, the market will drive its capitalization down. Companies, including radio, used to be a lot different 50 years ago, say, than they are today. I saw the inner workings of a manufacturing company that my father used to work for (as Plant manager). It was independently owned, and yes, while money mattered (if only to stay in business), so did the customers and the employees. Now everything is about Corporate Executive, stock prices, market share, and beating the other guy. You'll rarely hear anything about doing a good job in the community.
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Post by djboutit2 on Apr 23, 2018 1:35:54 GMT
Here's why I think internet radio is dying and it is getting harder got get listeners
To much competition a lot of station are just run for fun and nothing more you have teens playing music from the last 5 years they get crappy free hosting 64kbps to 96kbps and put 20 to 40 cds worth of tracks on rotate and do nothing else.
A few of the internet radio directories are not listing station any more Shoutcast kinda hard to get listed not and they do not show artist title any more no point being listed they are not showing your info Radio Tuna has been in sleep mode for 2 1/2 years now and Tunein is not accepting stations any more they are getting sued for not paying royalties they dropped my station 5 weeks ago. Shoutcast and Radiotuna gave me 65% to 70% of the listeners to my station.
10 to 15 years ago your average of internet radio station listeners were 25 to 40 now it is like 14 to 21 this age does not want to list to stuff for 70s to 90s they only want to hear crap that only gets 5 min of fame for the last few years. Reason the listener age has dropped so much mobile devices make so easy to listen to internet radio.
Stream licensing fees are getting way to high for newbies to start a station.
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Post by Admin on Apr 24, 2018 1:32:15 GMT
Reinforces my decision not to stream. I might re-consider but only to send a private stream to a second location to feed a second transmitter. Without any data to back it up, my guess is the average number of listeners for an Internet stream is probably from 1 to 3! Here's why I think internet radio is dying and it is getting harder got get listeners To much competition a lot of station are just run for fun and nothing more you have teens playing music from the last 5 years they get crappy free hosting 64kbps to 96kbps and put 20 to 40 cds worth of tracks on rotate and do nothing else. A few of the internet radio directories are not listing station any more Shoutcast kinda hard to get listed not and they do not show artist title any more no point being listed they are not showing your info Radio Tuna has been in sleep mode for 2 1/2 years now and Tunein is not accepting stations any more they are getting sued for not paying royalties they dropped my station 5 weeks ago. Shoutcast and Radiotuna gave me 65% to 70% of the listeners to my station. 10 to 15 years ago your average of internet radio station listeners were 25 to 40 now it is like 14 to 21 this age does not want to list to stuff for 70s to 90s they only want to hear crap that only gets 5 min of fame for the last few years. Reason the listener age has dropped so much mobile devices make so easy to listen to internet radio. Stream licensing fees are getting way to high for newbies to start a station.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2018 2:51:52 GMT
No Way of Knowing
The only thing knowable to a streaming station is a "connection" which shows an IP address somewhere.
It is impossible to know if a human being on the other end of the connection is truly "listening" to the station.
It could just as easily be the copyright police checking to see if you're paying royalties for the music.
Maybe it's the government checking up on political messages so they can crack-down.
Or it's some poor devil making a technical analysis of streamers as he learns how to start one of his own.
I've had an IP address traceable to Indianapolis Indiana frequently connect to my station, but I do not know anyone in that area and can only wonder why they connect. Maybe they are trying to mine bit-coins on my computer.
I do scans of internet stations looking for other talk formats and find surprisingly few of them... almost everybody plays rock music.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2018 3:25:23 GMT
I've stopped streaming for now, but when I was, I did get some listeners.
The major reason I streamed was to extend my listening area locally. People that couldn't receive the station over-the-air could at least tune in with their streaming devices. The internet stream was advertised to those potential local listeners right alongside the radio broadcasts.
But I've also received e-mails from the Caribbean, various parts of the U.S. and overseas, all from listeners who happened upon Artisan Radio (some randomly, although most found it through social media), liked it, and became listeners. One was a somewhat renowned musicologist, who contributed several regular programs to the station over the years.
Social media can play a major role in being 'found', which is the biggest problem any micro broadcaster has. We had one individual doing a West Coast Jazz show - he was a former local jazz musician, and he posted regularly to Facebook and other local music blogs about the shows he was doing. The musicologist had written several books, on Bobby Darrin, Cliff Richard and others, and posted to fan Forums about what he was doing.
If I were to summarize what I've learned to gain listeners (if that's what you want to do, some don't), it would be: - you'll get a few random listeners just streaming, but not many. There are just too many streams 'out there'. Most streams in the Icecast directory have 1 listener at any time, and that's probably just the streamer monitoring it - you have to advertise what you're doing, not just in Part 15 and other similar Forums, but out in the real world, and to people who may have an interest in your programming - you have to advertise locally.
All this is hard work, and takes time. Probably years.
Add in the fact that your stream has to be up all the time, 24/7, the same as the big boys, with the same level of reliability. It's really professional broadcasting with micro power, rather than hobby broadcasting. And in streaming, you're competing with the flame throwers, so power means nothing.
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Post by thelegacy on Apr 24, 2018 6:38:31 GMT
I can't help but respond to some of the misconceptions I have been reading about internet radio from many folks who have been having trouble becoming successful in their project.
I don't mean to sound cynical but when I hear people say they can only get three listeners or anything less than five or six that really is pitiful especially if you've been doing it for a year or so. If that is the case we need to talk about formats and age groups as well as rather not you should stream 24/7 in order to get success.
First of all you are correct that there are thousands of Internet radio stations and it's very difficult to be on top when there are so many radio stations. Not to mention services like Pandora Spotify Tidal and then you even have apple music all of which are automatic jukeboxes based on popular genres and most of these jukeboxes play from the charts. This is where hobby radio can shine because you as a music programmer have the ability to break people free of the top 40 top 100 or even top 500.
Rather you play vinyl or you simply stream music that you buy online you will need at least 30000 + songs in your catalog. No if ands or buts if you want to become a successful station you need to be very serious about what you're doing and have a format that is different from the top 40 young country and the stuff that they call wannabe classic rock which is no more than classic hits. Focus on what you want to accomplish and the people you're trying to attract.
One example would be if you're playing old country such as Buck Owens Tammy Wynette Johnny Cash Charley Pride June Carter Loretta Lynn and so on. You would not turn around in mix that with something like Taylor Swift. Doing so would be sacrilegious to the folks that love the old country format. Keep in mind to that folks that listen to the older style of music especially old country or even Blues like Muddy Waters pay a fortune for good audiophile equipment so you're station had damn well better have good audio. Streaming in anything less than 128 k MP3 is unacceptable unless you plan on streaming in AAC Plus which then you can stream at 64k in stereo.
Bandwidth is very important as you won't be able to run a server at your house after posting your station on Manny radio directories such as TuneIn and radio.com. there is even a new one called live online radio dot-com which does very well too. With that being said you will need to rent a server and decide if you want Icecast or shoutcast.
There is a major difference between a value server and a dedicated server. Value server is as it sounds they share their data with other servers like gaming servers which will suck the bandwidth dry and cause your stream to constantly cut in and out during high peak times. With your server plan you should think about Auto DJ and be ready to pay a little bit. These little 5 GB DJ plans is a joke you will need 100 GB minimum.
Centova cast is a wonderful Back-up Plan if your stream ever drops the auto DJ will pick up and begin streaming so that your listeners do not get cut off your station. Remember when I first started I could not afford an auto DJ plan before I had a sponsor and that cost me a lot of listeners. Your stream cuts out too many times You've Lost That listener and they will not and I repeat not come back.
So now we've talked about audience targeting your stream server and audio quality. The next thing you will need is lots of patience and of course at first it's going to cost you a ton of money I'm not going to be quiet about it or beat around the bush it's going to cost you money. You can figure between 100 and $110 a month on your station this will include the server Auto DJ and your music licensing. Licensing is going to be the number one cost because you will be paying at least $90 a month for licensing alone.
The next thing we need to talk about is Radio automation software. If you do not have a separate streamer and an audio processor mixing board and all the fun stuff you can still sound good but you're going to need to buy a piece of software with built-in audio processing. As an album rocker there is nothing better and for the money that you will spend and I have ran through tons of radio software programs such a Sam broadcaster which that program is a resource intensive program. Most radio automation software should not be ran on anything less than 8GB of RAM if you're planning on running Windows 7 or higher. With 8 gigs of RAM you can take requests you can go on the web and check out your stations progress heck you can even download music at the same time and you will not have any glitches in your computer. I do it all the time I've even ran TeamSpeak at the same time as my station no hiccups no separate computers all ran on one laptop not a single hiccup or glitch. The trick is a fast processor you want the fastest you can afford 3 gigahertz of speed or higher it don't even think about running single core processors they will not work for radio station use. I suggest a gaming computer if you can afford it such as an Alienware or a good Dell laptop or HP running a true Athlon or Intel processor none of that Celeron crap.
Now that you've got that information I recommend nextkast with its built-in audio processor that is very good and the software has a very slim learning curve it is one of the easiest softwares to run. The audio processor in the software is so damn good that when the FCC visited me they looked around for my external processor no joke so if you run this program you will sound good if not you're doing something wrong.
After you get your station up and running it is important to tell the local folks in your area about your station. One way to do it is to attend social events such as karaoke night. If you do a song or two be sure to mention your station and be sure to sing songs that are in your radio station's format. This gives the people and idea of what you're going to be playing. Find out if the owners at Ma and Pa's stores or bars will allow you to put up a sticker or flyer or some type of poster about your station. Get on your Town's Facebook page and post about it. Make sure everyone in your town is aware that you run a radio station and what type of station you run. If you're doing part 15 am broadcasting give the frequency and your approximate range. This lets the folks know how to find you. Make sure your website has an app for your radio station you may find websites that do free apps for you such as nobex which has a free app builder. You can also use a short URL link if you can't afford a personal web address and use something like Wix to make your website.
Your site should have your radio stations mission meaning what are you trying to accomplish. Mine clearly states that the general idea is to break you free of the shackles of top 40 rap and explains how rap head-wound radio since 1984. So a mission statement is necessary so that the audience knows what type of station they are going to tune to. Also widgets are very important a stream licensing has those and people will see the songs that you play on your website. Don't forget the PayPal donation button that will help you trust me if people think you're good they will donate and donations help to pay for your equipment the high cost of Licensing and keep you pretty much a float.
Last but not least we will talk about how you can tell fake listeners from real listeners. This involves knowing a little bit about computers and software and when that software was made. For example if you see a listener using iTunes 4.0 you already know that's a fake listener they haven't used that since Windows 95. Also when Aunt 5.0 that is a fake listener. When it has gone up to five point 81 I believe my point is is that it's way higher than 5.0 and has been for quite a few years now. If you don't know when that software agent came out look it up in Google. Centova Cast allows you to look at the agents that they're listening to you with. So you can tell if it's a fake listener or not and if you're not sure there are many Internet Radio forums whereas people can help you but I can tell you a lot of fake agent softwares.
My listener base even at night at 3 for in the morning has at least seven listeners and in the daytime I would say my lowest value is around 11. We're talking the low value here during the day. The reason for so is that I've done a lot of leg work plus social media work and it did help when people heard me on the air because when they got out of range they heard me on the internet as I advertise the website plenty of times. Like I said don't be afraid to socialize and if you can get cards made out with your radio station on it give those cards to people you know like that type of music that you play. Doing this helps get the word out because they will tell their friends and word spreads.
Don't Be Afraid however if a listener request something that is outside of your format sometimes they will do it purposely to test you to see if you are really what you say you are. Stick to your guns the ones that are dedicated to the format that you are trying to have an image of will appreciate you and they will donate to your station. Remind your listeners they don't have to have a satellite subscription to enjoy X format that you're playing. This eases their mind when it comes to a thought about donations. You might be surprised I've had donations up to $300 in one donation and as low as $10 don't expect everyone to donate hundreds of dollars I'm just saying you never know what you'll get the point is if you have 20 listeners and they donate 10 bucks a piece it's not long before that adds up and it helps you to pay for expensive equipment and we all know how expensive this hobby is. Make sure that you mention that your station is a non-profit station you are not corporate people appreciate that and they will donate to you.
I wish some of you folks that are having difficulties in this project look because it took me a long time to get where I'm at right now it is not easy I will tell you that and if you're dedicated you will make it but if you're not dedicated you will fail and eventually get tired of it and shut down. It's all up to you if you're willing to do the work then the rewards are great but it's not going to come without Growing Pains so get ready for them and if you have a spouse hopefully that spouse is supportive and what you're doing.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2018 13:21:10 GMT
Much To Know
TheLegacy makes many good points about putting together and operating an online radio station. This part here jumps out to me and was something I have been curious about: "Last but not least we will talk about how you can tell fake listeners from real listeners. This involves knowing a little bit about computers and software .... So you can tell if it's a fake listener or not and if you're not sure there are many Internet Radio forums whereas people can help you but I can tell you a lot of fake agent softwares."
TheLegacy has much more than an opinion about the technical issues, he has looked deep into the nuts and bolts.
Also, a few posts earlier, Artisan Radio made some strong points about the grunt work required to establish a streaming station in the minds of potential listeners... you've got to do missionary work and get out there and shake a few hands.
For me and KDX Worldround Radio it is a "self-service" effort aimed at pleasing me with programs I enjoy hearing, and it works perfectly.
There's no practical reason why I need to stream, but I do it out of fascination for the technology and it impresses me to know that I have an international station.
In my private world I do wonder who the couple of connections are, as they briefly show up on my server, and I wonder if they are friendly or hostile. Now I'll take the data to TheLegacy and have him analyze it for me.
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Post by mark on Apr 24, 2018 15:50:04 GMT
Legacy said......One example would be if you're playing old country such as Buck Owens Tammy Wynette Johnny Cash Charley Pride June Carter Loretta Lynn and so on. You would not turn around in mix that with something like Taylor Swift. Doing so would be sacrilegious to the folks that love the old country format. Keep in mind to that folks that listen to the older style of music especially old country or even Blues like Muddy Waters pay a fortune for good audiophile equipment so you're station had damn well better have good audio. Streaming in anything less than 128 k MP3 is unacceptable unless you plan on streaming in AAC Plus which then you can stream at 64k in stereo.
I am guilty of this a bit, by straying outside the main theme of my format a bit as I can keep the main core of the intended format but not be exclusive to that to not broaden it a bit. Not be so rigid to get a chance of an extra listener but If I don't like it it never gets played. I even have some "old" country in the mix.
Example.....I am 50s 60s and 70s rock and roll hits but there's "some" eighties, mostly carry overs from the 70s and Canadian content but I also have some things like " Hit and Run" by Girlschool etc etc. Not being so rigid in a format sets us apart from the commercial stations even more that just doing what they don't do. I like Part 15 Engineer's approach.
What will NEVER get played is anything electronically generated. Synthesized music of any kind.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2018 17:43:40 GMT
Some Room for Argument
TheLegacy's comments on the technical part of streaming are very well informed, but I find plenty of room for argument in TheLegacy's position on music formats.
As I see it TheLegacy is making assumptions.
TheLegacy assumes that his musical opinion is true and correct and applies to the whole field of programming.
TheLegacy assumes that music has some kind of special hold on audiences and that they "expect" a certain combination or else they will not be happy.
TheLegacy has not quoted from or referred to any other musical "expert" and believes entirely in his own opinion as if no one else knows as much.
The Legacy believes that music he doesn't like is therefore bad for everybody, such as "rap".
I have not stepped up to argue about music programming because I believe a man's belief in music or anything else is personal and a Constitutional right, even if it's not exactly correct.
The true musical standard in this group is mine. I alone know everything about music and much more than practically anyone alive on the whole planet.
Yet, I don't think my perfect musical opinions would attract a radio audience because all the listeners have bad musical attitudes and won't realize how great my music is.
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Post by Druid Hills Radio on Apr 24, 2018 17:46:54 GMT
Our LPFM runs 24/7 and when no programming is scheduled we run a very eclectic mix of music. Like TheLegacy we try to find deep cuts. I like driving to work listening to say, "Let Me Hear You Knocking" by The Rolling Stones and the song is still playing as I arrive at work. The broadcast software we use is RadioBoss . It runs nicely and is capable of streaming. Our streaming provider is Live365. We pay extra to avoid ad insertion. The cost to the university is $79 per month. This covers all licensing in the United States.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2018 18:05:08 GMT
Face to Face
Druid Hill,s Radio says: "...when no programming is scheduled we run a very eclectic mix of music. Like TheLegacy we try to find deep cuts."
You think you're so smart.
And, in actual fact, you are!
On top of your excellent programming you belong to the ALPB! What could be better?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2018 18:44:38 GMT
I think both Carl and Thelegacy are correct to some extent.
You can run a radio station/streaming station in one of two ways. Try to figure out what your listener base, or who you want as listeners, wish to listen to and provide that (such as your local community). Or you can program your station for a certain set of listener tastes that you define (and hope that others have that same taste).
Both ways can work, provided that you advertise to your intended audiences (the way you advertise may be different).
I do agree with Carl in that there is no one correct way of programming. What is crap to me obviously isn't crap to a lot of other people, as I hear what I consider crap on most music radio stations.
As for telling fake from real listeners, the only way that I know of is to go into your logs, and see who is listening and the listening patterns. When I was streaming, I was getting several hundred listener connections per day. But many were obviously bots, as they would connect for a very short while, and then go away. The true listeners would stay connected for a while, presumably listening. Those comprised 5-10% of the total.
I'm sure there are services that can automatically block certain sets of IPs from known spammers and/or bots, but I never saw the need to go that route. You can be TOO paranoid. I did end up manually blocking a set of IPs from a known spammer that sent my listener connections through the roof over a period of time (tens of thousands of attempted connections per day). But that just arose out of due diligence, watching the logs.
I would venture to say that most streaming radio stations get few, if any listeners. I'm sure that they've worked very hard to get their station up and running. But like most things, it's marketing and sales that makes the difference. You have to get the word out that you exist. And in today's PIRATE enforcement climate, combined with enhanced copyright enforcement, I'm sure there are a lot of people that are reluctant to do so.
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