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Post by mark on Jan 3, 2018 23:38:04 GMT
For me and DavidC mostly. The new amendment for RSS-210 dated Nov. 2017 does not include the subsection that it did before about if your modulation is FM and you are on the odd frequencies you can have 100uV/M@30meters like BETS-1. I called about this and was told that any amendment that supercedes another replaces an older one and if that isn't mentioned IT IS NO LONGER IN EFFECT.........http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/sf01320.html Section B9
So RSS-210 is THE SAME as FCC part 15 and the issue 7 section A2.8 subsection B doesn't apply anymore. tech.ahtr.net/radio/rss-210/rss210-7-jun2007.pdf |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 16:33:43 GMT
So BETS is the way to go.
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Post by Druid Hills Radio on Jan 4, 2018 17:58:14 GMT
For me and DavidC mostly. The new amendment for RSS-210 dated Nov. 2017 does not include the subsection that it did before about if your modulation is FM and you are on the odd frequencies you can have 100uV/M@30meters like BETS-1. I called about this and was told that any amendment that supercedes another replaces an older one and if that isn't mentioned IT IS NO LONGER IN EFFECT.........http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/sf01320.html Section B9
So RSS-210 is THE SAME as FCC part 15 and the issue 7 section A2.8 subsection B doesn't apply anymore. tech.ahtr.net/radio/rss-210/rss210-7-jun2007.pdfConfusing. |
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Post by mark on Jan 4, 2018 19:04:59 GMT
Follow up.....Also found out that a transmitter certified on a date and time when a certain rule was in effect that rule applies even though there was a change or amendment at a later date. So the Broadcastvision/Waio transmitter's certification date was back in 2007 so that standard in effect at the time of certification stands for that item.
Yes it's confusing here because there's two categories for unlicensed use here...BETS-1 which is strictly for the 88-107.5 MHZ and 520-1705 KLZ bands and RSS-210 which covers everything wireless from garage door openers to radio/communication bands(including AM and FM) and everything in between. BETS-1 has remained unchanged but RSS-210 is always being superceded with new amendments that might change what was in effect before. So as far as the AM(520-1705KLZ) and FM(88-108MHZ) there's two categories that apply here...basically the same except for intent(are you broadcasting or not).
A transmitter can be approved/certified for BETS-1 or RSS-210 OR BOTH! as with the Decade CM-10. BETS-1 allows more signal strength than part 15 and RSS-210 is the same or not depending when the certification was and what was in effect then. And the CRTC hasn't been added into the picture yet.
In the USA one category exists and that's part 15 for everything license free. As long as you stay in the signal strength limit or with AM the antenna and power rule broadcasting or not doesn't matter.
Simpler, yes.
Mark
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 19:21:21 GMT
I'll take the complexity of the Canadian rules to get the added field strength of BETS.
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Post by thelegacy on Jan 5, 2018 19:08:14 GMT
Your lucky in Canada you can still use FM for Hobby Broadcasting
choking on these words as an avid FM guy now having to bow to AM I sure wish The Legacy was in Canada. I'd still be on FM and getting my listeners as well as the fun I had and ease of an easy to set up and operate FM Transmitter with NextKast whereas I can set and forget and concentrate on great Album Rock programming.
If ever your FM band gets as crowded as the USA you'll feel sever FM withdraw as I had to quit COLD TURKEY no warning in the mist so enjoy these final days of FM while you can and pay homage to them because I'm sure they will be numbered just like the USA.
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Post by mark on Jan 5, 2018 19:54:42 GMT
Well, in the greater Toronto area, it's quite full but not from Toronto stations but from the ones that come from other places like Hamilton, Niagra, Barrie to the north, and Buffalo USA. Also Kitchener/Waterloo to the west. Also Oshawa to the east.
But there's still space and in Toronto 90.7 is the best place and is empty on each side so good. No station has ever gone there and could be that that has to stay open for some reason. That's where I am. I could also go on 89.9 and there's a few other places but a station beside.
Also, interfering with a Buffalo station that's very weak that no one would be listening to anyway that comes and goes won't be frowned upon because out of country stations have no protection from ISED(Industry Canada)
I used to listen to a Rochester station and a new Toronto station came on the air on top of it and I complained and was told too bad, we don't give protection to out of country stations.
If I move to a different area as I would like to half the band would be available.
Sorry about your situation as it's hard to think there's no place at all.
Hope you have luck getting an AM transmitter and I know album rock doesn't sound as good there. The receiver compresses the audio to a + or - 5KLZ compared to FM which is + or - 75 KLZ. That's the reason the audio isn't as good. It's not the transmitter.
If the same thing happens here I would have to try AM also.
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Post by Druid Hills Radio on Jan 5, 2018 20:26:01 GMT
The receiver compresses the audio to a + or - 5KLZ compared to FM which is + or - 75 KLZ. That's the reason the audio isn't as good. It's not the transmitter. If the same thing happens here I would have to try AM also. Sorry AM radio does not deviate. The Rangemaster can handle 15,000 Hz. Plenty good enough for music. |
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Post by thelegacy on Jan 5, 2018 20:47:49 GMT
My FM TX goes to 15Khz hard to believe.
Wow that is a difficult thing to believe. Looks like I'll have to watch some more youtube video's and see how easy this is or hard. Got to work daily and hammer on this.
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Post by Druid Hills Radio on Jan 5, 2018 21:01:50 GMT
My FM TX goes to 15Khz hard to believe.Wow that is a difficult thing to believe. Looks like I'll have to watch some more youtube video's and see how easy this is or hard. Got to work daily and hammer on this. That because it it was not limited to 15KHZ you would have problems with the 19 KHZ stereo pilot. |
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Post by Admin on Jan 5, 2018 23:06:21 GMT
GOOD AM doesn't deviate.
BAD AM does.
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Post by mark on Jan 5, 2018 23:12:40 GMT
The receiver compresses the audio to a + or - 5KLZ compared to FM which is + or - 75 KLZ. That's the reason the audio isn't as good. It's not the transmitter. If the same thing happens here I would have to try AM also. Sorry AM radio does not deviate. The Rangemaster can handle 15,000 Hz. Plenty good enough for music. My comment may have been misunderstood.....it's at the receiver end of things not the audio from the transmitter that makes AM have the compressed(muffled as compared to FM) sound with high frequency loss and loss of detail like hearing the alarm clock in the song by the Monkeys Daydream Believer. The IF section in the radio has a max. of 10klz bandwidth so the stations can be spaced every 10klz. 1010, 1020, 1030 etc. where FM has a 200klz bandwidth but a 25klz guard band on each side so 150klz bandwidth compared to 10klz bandwidth for AM. The only way to make AM sound better on the air is to widen the bandwidth like the GE super 3 or the Grundig field radio etc. |
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Post by Druid Hills Radio on Jan 8, 2018 14:07:54 GMT
Sorry AM radio does not deviate. The Rangemaster can handle 15,000 Hz. Plenty good enough for music. My comment may have been misunderstood.....it's at the receiver end of things not the audio from the transmitter that makes AM have the compressed(muffled as compared to FM) sound with high frequency loss and loss of detail like hearing the alarm clock in the song by the Monkeys Daydream Believer. The IF section in the radio has a max. of 10klz bandwidth so the stations can be spaced every 10klz. 1010, 1020, 1030 etc. where FM has a 200klz bandwidth but a 25klz guard band on each side so 150klz bandwidth compared to 10klz bandwidth for AM. The only way to make AM sound better on the air is to widen the bandwidth like the GE super 3 or the Grundig field radio etc. Don't confuse deviation with frequency response. FM is limited to 15,000 Hz. |
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Post by mark on Jan 10, 2018 0:29:09 GMT
That's a whole lot better than the 200HZ to 3 or 4kLZ that AM is. Basically midrange.
AM is like watching a low definition video. You get the general picture but you loose the detail...like you loose the definition in the audio with AM. Jut listen to some jazz on FM on your HI FI and then listen to the same thing on the same HI FI system on AM and hear the difference. Not knocking AM(well maybe a bit) but I understand why Thelegacy has such a hard time putting album rock on AM.
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Post by Boomer on Jan 10, 2018 6:56:45 GMT
These are my impressions
AM and FM are two forms of modulation that work in different ways at both the transmitter and receiver, and due to regulations.
Under controlled conditions AM and FM can achieve very much the same audio quality, mono or stereo, but the problem is really in the receivers and the regulations, and noise.
Receivers are designed cheaply on AM, possibly with voice communications in mind, and by folks who seem to not even listen to AM, and designers of the circuits follow others into the hole, so all radios start to sound lo-fi.
It doesn't help that several decades ago, the National Radio Systems Committee (NRSC) worked to cut back AM's frequency response from 15,000 Hz to 10,000 Hz, as they claimed it would reduce interference between stations. With that sweeping change, each station on AM lost 1/3 of its bandwidth real estate, and there were very few complaints at the time. Yet.. it's a double standard, the rule allowing 10 khz audio, but allowing stations that run HD digital radio on AM to use bandwidth to 15 khz again. HD got it, but not full analog broadcasters? Heh.
Part-15 AM stations aren't required to limit their bandwidth, so don't worry about that..
Noise is an issue, and it always has been, but in these days of digital audio, people are not as up to listening to hissy, crackly audio, but at one time noise was part of all formats. There are ways to combat it on AM and FM, but AM hasn't kept pace with FM in noise reduction, just lowering the bandwidth with strong filtering.
AM would still have more noise in with the signals, and you can have receiver processing and do a lot to help make it quieter, but radio makers just add capacitors to roll off highs or narrow band digital IF strips in radios and call it a day.
My proposal is modest, even if it's like trying to reverse a windmill by hand.. That is, widen the bandwidth of all radios to receive up to 10 khz audio (20 khz bandwidth) and apply noise reduction. That would do a lot, and you can offer a narrow band switch like radio that had a switch for Day or Night. You might not get signals from 100 miles away in wideband, but I'd rather hear good quality sound instead.
As for bandwidth, AM uses "twice the highest modulating frequency." That means if you modulate to 15,000 Hz, your channel width is 30,000 Hz, or with 10,000 Hz audio, 20,000 Hz bandwidth.
FM needs to have a wider bandwidth for low noise and high fidelity.
Boomer
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