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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2017 18:58:36 GMT
An interesting post on the Part 15 rules and broadcasting has gone up in the public area of Hobbybroadcaster the past day. While there's nothing in the post (which is somewhat rambling and has many grammatical errors) that hasn't been said before, here and elsewhere, it's interesting because of both the theoretical and practical experience of the source.
Here is a summary of the major talking points of the post (I also posted this over at part15.us):
1. The Part 15 rules are vague, particularly surrounding grounds and ground leads. Only an FCC inspector can give you an opinion as to the legality of a specific installation (and that opinion is ONLY for that installation)
2. If you use a certified transmitter, then you have the right to broadcast under Part 15 rules. The FCC is pro Part 15 broadcasting, and, in most cases, willing to help you adhere to the rules
3. If you are inspected, treat the FCC inspector with respect. You invite trouble if you don't, particularly if the agent has travelled some distance to your site.
4. Keep copies of your transmitter's certification information on site.
5. Only pirates (those who are deliberately breaking the rules) get into real trouble involving fines etc. [that may be overly optimistic, as there have been cases of over zealous FCC inspectors, but for the most part is probably correct].
If you are using a non certified, but compliant, transmitter (which is your right, under the rules), then I would also keep the relevant technical information about your compliance on site.
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Post by thelegacy on Nov 20, 2017 20:52:34 GMT
Can't remember where I read this or heard this but it has been talked about in an ALPB meeting:
for a distance of 10 feet at a height of table level approx 4 Ft from ground level your signal strength to a Tecsun 880 Radio should be 48 DB's. Again can't remember the source.
An engineer for NRR has asked the FCC this question and had a very good and surprising responce:
If my signal fades to black on a car Radio at 200 Ft and I have my transmitter at table level (approx 4 Feet) but raise the transmitter without using any other antenna or adjusting the power and I'm at a height of 60 Ft and get 1,000+ feet to the same car Radio am I legal?
The agent said Yes because you didn't change anything on the transmitter and you were going 200 Ft at Table Level!!!
This means you can raise your transmitter up to 60 feet and put it inside a waterproof box and have either a Bluetooth, two separate baby monitors modified to have its audio output going to your FM Transmitter and have two separate baby monitor transmitters whereas the mic has been removed and instead you solder a 1/8th in jack to them and pad them down and your off to the races with 1,000+ Ft range.
Remember WKID now legally gets out further than 200 Ft. Could this also be what the FM Christmas light station did in Frankinmuth, Michigan did and I got them a mile? I bet so.
I've heard about the NEC software saying otherwise but that explains at least to me why an FM station so close to the FCC office in Detroit never got a peep from the FCC. I say raise your transmitter 75 Ft in the air and you should have great coverage and be legal every time so long as you first measure at table level and go 200 Ft to a car Radio then raise it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2017 21:18:07 GMT
Let's not mix things up here.
WKID is legal, if they are indeed legal, because a member of the FCC said they were. If you or I tried it, that's something else again. That's one of the points made by Hamilton.
Raising your FM transmitter, without changing anything else, CAN get you more range. If you go strictly by the field strength rules, there's no way you'll get a mile. Those calculations have been done. However, if an FCC inspector says you're legal, then you're legal. Again, that's what Hamilton is saying.
The rules are vague. Attempt to comply. Cooperate with the FCC if you're inspected. If you do that, you'll be OK. If you don't, then expect to be taken off the air, if caught.
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Post by thelegacy on Nov 20, 2017 21:40:41 GMT
What you just said makes sense!
I think (can't prove it) but it depends on Location and interference. I watched a raid on a station on Youtube and they didn't want to let the FCC inspect. I'd say let them in and if they tell you shut down till you have it fixed then do it. Even offer them the TX and tell them you'll try and replace it with a suitable compliant TX and offer to have it re inspected sort of like your car has to pas an inspection and sometimes there are check points.
It would be much simpler to give Hobby Broadcasters a set of frequencies they can use in areas whereas its not congested. Maybe someone will come up with a suitable proposal everyone can live with and have it passed. Till then we have those vague rules to live with.
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Post by mark on Nov 21, 2017 0:54:47 GMT
Went to HB and read the whole post on what Hamilton said and I think this applies to ISED(Industry Canada) also.
I know if I ever got a visit I would greet them, invite them in and in the unlikely event of a problem say I'm glad you came so I can fix it.
I announce on air at random "this station complies with all BETS-1 and CRTC rules for unlicensed broadcasting using an approved transmitter. Any comments can be emailed to....."
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Post by mark on Nov 21, 2017 1:02:07 GMT
Let's not mix things up here. WKID is legal, if they are indeed legal, because a member of the FCC said they were. If you or I tried it, that's something else again. That's one of the points made by Hamilton. Raising your FM transmitter, without changing anything else, CAN get you more range. If you go strictly by the field strength rules, there's no way you'll get a mile. Those calculations have been done. However, if an FCC inspector says you're legal, then you're legal. Again, that's what Hamilton is saying. The rules are vague. Attempt to comply. Cooperate with the FCC if you're inspected. If you do that, you'll be OK. If you don't, then expect to be taken off the air, if caught. To add....whether Canada or the US if you think you've been told you are not legal when you think you are as you understand the rules when reading them, you always can have your day in court to defend your position. |
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Post by thelegacy on Nov 21, 2017 2:45:02 GMT
According to hobby broadcast her that's what the boy and his father who lived way up high on the 24th floor did. The FCC tried to say that because he was so high he was not allowed to broadcast but the judge felt otherwise and the boy and his father continue to operate even though they could get out a mile or so because of the height.
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Post by mighty1650 on Nov 21, 2017 19:32:27 GMT
This is how I've largely felt about Part 15 and how the FCC operates. A visit does not mean you will get an NOUO, NOUO's are for the real pirates that are repeat offenders and show complete disregard for the rules.
I think what is important is following the rules to the best of your abilities and what the install location will allow. Only the FCC can decide if you are legal or not and no one setup is the same as another. What may pass in one area may be inappropriate for another. This is why I've never been particularly fond of "policing" the bands, though it is insanely important to make sure users know the actual rules as they are written and not hearsay.
(Power and Audio leads being questioned comes to mind as there is nothing specific mentioned about either in the rules and yet we have some debate about this now)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2017 21:16:47 GMT
I think I now know why that post appeared, seemingly out of the blue. Another post (from the past) showed up on Hobbybroadcaster today, talking about an elevated installation with a 32 foot ground lead. I can imagine the discussion that ensued from that one, and there were a large number of replies (the public can't see the replies, only the original post).
For that particular instance, it appears that the broadcaster knew exactly what he was doing, and deliberately chose to 'skate the line' in terms of legality (statements about range being extremely poor until the long ground lead was added are the key to that conclusion). Whether the FCC would pass that particular installation is open to question (I'd say no, but then I'm not the FCC). And who knows what was said in the Forum, positive or negative, behind the scenes.
I'm a little confused about Mighty's reference to power and audio lines. I haven't seen those questioned seriously anywhere (although admittedly I'm not everywhere) except for Part 15 FM, where adding virtually anything to an installation tends to increase field strength. An audio or power lead (except if the power lead is also used as a ground) certainly isn't explicit part of an AM antenna.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2017 21:33:18 GMT
I Was There and Witnessed What Was Said
DavidC wonders about: "Mighty's reference to power and audio lines."
A while ago at part15_us, on top of several thousand references to "long ground leads", the resident hobby agent got it in his head that shield leads in audio cables might also cause undue radiation along with power wires attached to a transmitter.
The matter seems to have been dropped perhaps over the fact that it wouldn't be possible to transmit at all without power and audio wires.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2017 0:06:07 GMT
Thanks for the reminder, Carl. I tend to not pay attention to posts that I deem somewhat irrelevant (at least to Part15.219).
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Post by Druid Hills Radio on Nov 22, 2017 15:40:05 GMT
There is a fellow Part 15 operator that has an "ungrounded" elevated installation that covers his small town as well as one adjacent to his. My guess is that the power/audio is radiating to some extent. But never-the-less, the installation is legal until you-know-who gets the subject stuck in his craw and then there will be a one-way unsolicited discussion on every radio blog on the planet. So yes, the less said the better.
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Post by jimhenry2000 on Nov 22, 2017 18:26:52 GMT
From where I sit, admittedly with just 2 years of experience with this stuff, here is how I see it. Yes, if the FCC comes out, be nice, friendly, helpful, cooperative. Most all the NOUOs I see are issued to FM stations, not AM. Being out in the boonies, I find it very hard to imagine a visit from the FCC, unless someone filed a complaint, which is even harder to imagine since there are no other stations I could possibly interfere with. My setup is legal based on my understanding of the rules, but if the FCC came out and told me I had to change something, I'd change it. An interesting post on the Part 15 rules and broadcasting has gone up in the public area of Hobbybroadcaster the past day. While there's nothing in the post (which is somewhat rambling and has many grammatical errors) that hasn't been said before, here and elsewhere, it's interesting because of both the theoretical and practical experience of the source. Here is a summary of the major talking points of the post (I also posted this over at part15.us): 1. The Part 15 rules are vague, particularly surrounding grounds and ground leads. Only an FCC inspector can give you an opinion as to the legality of a specific installation (and that opinion is ONLY for that installation) 2. If you use a certified transmitter, then you have the right to broadcast under Part 15 rules. The FCC is pro Part 15 broadcasting, and, in most cases, willing to help you adhere to the rules 3. If you are inspected, treat the FCC inspector with respect. You invite trouble if you don't, particularly if the agent has travelled some distance to your site. 4. Keep copies of your transmitter's certification information on site. 5. Only pirates (those who are deliberately breaking the rules) get into real trouble involving fines etc. [that may be overly optimistic, as there have been cases of over zealous FCC inspectors, but for the most part is probably correct]. If you are using a non certified, but compliant, transmitter (which is your right, under the rules), then I would also keep the relevant technical information about your compliance on site. |
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