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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 13:31:26 GMT
Avalanche of Analysis
A wise dog recently said: "As we've seen time and again though, there's no absolute truth about the way something is going to play out, or one way to go about things, and even from the time a statement has been made things could change. There are too many variables, and analysis just breaks down.
"In the small spaces of Part-15 forums, destructive reverberation can occur, but I think it's just good to just lie back and enjoy the hobby more."
Boomers statement contains so much truth that the most I can do is repeat it.
Everything we do to describe low power radio activity in words amounts to language play. And what is "play" but a hobby? At the very least we are "word hobbyists", even if our home station evolves into an "appliance"
We can't speak over the refrigerator or stove because no one is listening to those appliances, but we can send spoken messages over the household transmitter and neighbors might happen to tune in!
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Post by End80 on Jan 17, 2018 15:24:22 GMT
Appreciate that Boomer. While my blog is probably not much use to a beginner since it doesn't really instruct much on how to get started or anything, or even provide a general overview of part 15, it does take a close look at many individual aspects of the hobby.. It's really not structured at all, it's just a mash of interesting topics concerning part 15, but I do really try to focus on genuine legalities, and that's why I've hesitated (frustrated) and put off posting in my blog about my year-long research revolving around the most predominate and extensive use of 15.219 beginning it the late 1960s at Yellowstone on up to the present day concerning outdoor part 15 whip and mast installs. I don't know how to address with respect to part 15 compliance.
It's actually a very interesting, even beautiful story.. but the problem (as I stated earlier) is that they clearly have never been compliant with being legal! not then, nor presently. Nevertheless, they do now and have always been the most prevalent use of 15.219 (ie: national parks and such with long ground leads). However, what is equally obvious is that they always have maintained an average range of only about 1/4 to 3/4 of mile , so in that respect, at least the "spirit" of the rule had always been maintained and not abused, and have never been cited with NOUOs.
-- So, again, by my reasoning, this is why I think the emphasis of achieving maximum range with part 15 is completely the wrong mindset to have - After all, you have to break the 3 meter rule to achieve extended range anyway.
- One can argue that's not true, since you can ground mount it and employ ground radials to keep within the 3 meter rule because vertical radials do not radiate, or that you can elevate it and employ a choke or something to keep the extended lead from radiating; but even those ideas are based on a misconception; because there is nothing in the rules specifying or even indicating anything about whether the excess ground length radiates - it only specifies the total length must not exceed 3 meters, period. This also was explained by FCC Chief John Reed: "..As to the ground lead, this is exactly what we've been saying all along. If you attach your ground lead to a drainpipe, billboard, or other structure, that structure becomes part of the ground lead and is included in the 3 m limit. Similarly, if you install a ground plane or otherwise change the ground efficiency."
However, it can be argued that his statement was incorrect, since he has been known to make incorrect statements before (ie: "When a loading coil is employed, we consider its electrical length as part of the antenna.. ..[thus] will far exceed the permitted 3 m length." " which was proved not accurate, and he later recanted the statement.
It's been said many time that Part 15 has a "vagueness" to it. But it's not vague, it's convoluted. The closest we can come to being legal is to operate in a manner that has always been permitted; Keep your range in check.
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Post by Druid Hills Radio on Jan 17, 2018 18:07:19 GMT
End80: I don't have any issues with your observations/comments. I would like to share this comment as I been a compliance guy for a number of years. A Part 15 device submitted for certification is placed on a non-conductive table that is 0.80 meters above a ground plane. If a ground lead is normally employed (Procaster/Rangemaster) it is connected to the ground plane. That being said, a ground mounted "Certified" transmitter mounted 30 inches or so above ground will pass FCC muster. The key is that the transmitter was "certified" in this test configuration. A transmitter build from a kit most likely will not pass muster since it was never certified for compliance.
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Post by End80 on Jan 17, 2018 19:42:49 GMT
I understand that Druid, but there's a big difference between 30" and 10 or 15 feet elevation(or more) which thousands of certified transmitters have been at for 50 years consistently.
But it does bring up another point which I have never understood and have never had explained to me; The Talking House was "Certified" to utilize the electrical ground (from the wall socket), does not that obviously massively extend the ground lead??
And just for the sake of discussion; as you point out Rangemaster/Procaster being certified with a 30" rise.. So that makes it roughly 12ft which technically exceed 3 meters by two foot. These are just another (albeit minor) illustration of how convoluted part 15 can be when it comes to legalities, for it shows that even Certified transmitters do not technically conform to 15.219 despite those certifications.
Now I know I'm nick-picking at all this, but it's mostly out of frustration that there is no clear cut method to operate under rule 15.219 with any effectiveness. That's why I've come to the conclusion that the best bet is to follow the example of what has apparently always been accepted: Raise the transmitter to a reasonable height, but watch your range.
Now if I'm blind to some factor here, then please point it out. I've got no problem with being proven wrong.
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Post by End80 on Jan 17, 2018 19:55:57 GMT
This illustrates the most commonly installed height that part15 transmitters have always been installed in state parks and such, but they have been as high as 30ft
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 19:57:30 GMT
End80 Strict to the End
End80's open door: "Now if I'm blind to some factor here, then please point it out. I've got no problem with being proven wrong."
You are not wrong as far as I'm able to tell, your detailed evaluation of part 15 does lead to the conclusion that compliance and range seem very much incompatible.
End80 has looked for the verifiably compliant way of covering a useful area while holding a no-risk compliance with the rules, and found that the rules do not stretch far enough to give a useful range.
Risk is the operative factor. One seeks assurance of being in business with zero risk, but with part 15 the risk is written into the rules. We must accept interference and risk.
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Post by End80 on Jan 17, 2018 20:24:58 GMT
Carl, I believe a ground mounted install has potential of being "effective enough" and still be 100% legal. But ground mount is often wrought with problems - that is if you even have that option in your area, which I don't.
It's necessary to make compromises of some sort.
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Post by Druid Hills Radio on Jan 17, 2018 20:43:06 GMT
I understand that Druid, but there's a big difference between 30" and 10 or 15 feet elevation(or more) which thousands of certified transmitters have been at for 50 years consistently. But it does bring up another point which I have never understood and have never had explained to me; The Talking House was "Certified" to utilize the electrical ground (from the wall socket), does not that obviously massively extend the ground lead?? And just for the sake of discussion; as you point out Rangemaster/Procaster being certified with a 30" rise.. So that makes it roughly 12ft which technically exceed 3 meters by two foot. These are just another (albeit minor) illustration of how convoluted part 15 can be when it comes to legalities, for it shows that even Certified transmitters do not technically conform to 15.219 despite those certifications. Now I know I'm nick-picking at all this, but it's mostly out of frustration that there is no clear cut method to operate under rule 15.219 with any effectiveness. That's why I've come to the conclusion that the best bet is to follow the example of what has apparently always been accepted: Raise the transmitter to a reasonable height, but watch your range. Now if I'm blind to some factor here, then please point it out. I've got no problem with being proven wrong. The only thing I can tell you is that the emission test procedures were in place long before Talking House and other Part 15 Transmitters. The test platform is consistent for all Part 15 devices both intentional and unintentional. This would explain the so-called "secret" information the FCC does not want Joe Blow to know. In addition to the radiated emission measurements there is a conducted emission test too. The power cord is coiled in a serpentine fashion and plugged into a 50 ohm Line Impedance Stabilization Network (LISN). Measurements are made between 9 KHZ and 30 MHZ. There are limits that cannot be exceeded. Not having access to schematics of the factory supplied power supply I can only surmise that the supplied power may contain filtering.
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Post by End80 on Jan 17, 2018 21:08:49 GMT
Thanks for the info Druid, but do you really believe the FCC is concerned about Joe Blow finding out about an extra 30 inches of leeway?.. I'm more inclined to think the so called "secret" information has something more to do with turning a blind eye to the elevated installs of tourist information installs.
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Post by Druid Hills Radio on Jan 17, 2018 21:20:25 GMT
Thanks for the info Druid, but do you really believe the FCC is concerned about Joe Blow finding out about an extra 30 inches of leeway?.. I'm more inclined to think the so called "secret" information has something more to do with turning a blind eye to the elevated installs of tourist information installs. Who can be sure LOL! I can tell you that my Part 15 is mounted on a 10 foot mast and is grounded at the base. When operating on 1610 and the soil was moist from rain my noisy fringe range was a little more than 1.5 miles. This was in a small town environment and before I had a discussion with FCC Agents about operation on 1710 at 100 mW.
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Post by End80 on Jan 17, 2018 21:28:23 GMT
Well.. I'm gradually getting all this out of my system, and perhaps I made a bigger deal out of it then necessary. But one thing is for certain; nothing has changed, it's same as it ever was. There's no major enforcement against part 15 broadcasters, and won't be as long as there are no complaints issued.
Atlantic Records did it for years with only one known complaint and they were very high profile... It's unknown if they ever got shut down, or if they just quit broadcasting on their own: Atlanta Records Part 15 Escapades
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Post by thelegacy on Jan 17, 2018 22:36:44 GMT
Stations Who Advertise Those stations are under the microscope due to their business nature. Its what I've said about Tim's station. I'm surprised that big wigs in Radio Broadcasting don't complain about this. Remember this is a huge gripe about LPFM's who somehow sneak an ad or two in either by underwriting or some other means.
Asking for Donations is OK but still need to watch your promotions When I get on AM I'll be thanking those who've made it possible to deal with the huge obstacle I faced head on when The Streetz came on with their Rap and foul language crap on my frequency. However when I mention Aarons I'd have to watch any call to action. In other words your station has to sort of operate like a LPFM does in a sense of lack of advertising.
Watch offensive programming Have good programming for our small village and mention social events if possible. Let the public know how your station is appreciated because your programming is an asset and your station is an innovator not an imitator. That busy body who may ask too many questions should have a feeling of if they were to jepordize the station that the entire town might come down on them if any ill action towards the station is taken by their behalf.
Not a 2 mile range that will get you into trouble on AM Don't let the media interview your station because remember other broadcasting companies will also find out and they'll squeal like a stuffed pig. Instead get the word out by word of mouth. Even standing outside with a sandwich board with your stations frequency and format may be a great idea to let the public know. I may do this when my AM station is ready and spend at least 2 hrs a day standing next to the highway with a sandwich board or some sort of sign.
Go to the local bar and let folks know. Our bar and grill will know when the AM station is ready and I may even give shout outs to regulars there. I plan on making this a huge success in my rural community. Its the only way to spread the gospel about this station.
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Post by End80 on Jan 17, 2018 22:59:33 GMT
Not bad advice, but not all of that is necessarily true.. Radio Sausalito is a good example, they've been running almost 20 years now and they advertise and have been written about in numerous magazines and newspapers (which reminds me, I've been meaning to blog a post about them). Another good example that comes to mind is Tim in Bovery (Iron Range Country) (who you metioned)he also sells advertising and I think he has had write ups in papers too.
There's a big difference between LPFM and Part15. (low Power isn't allowed to advertise, Part15 is allowed) I actually think advertising and public attention is a good thing, but I agree with your other points.
Oh! Dave had recently written a good station profile about Radio Sausalito over at HB: www.hobbybroadcaster.net/profiles/radio-sausalito.php They have 6 Rangemaster spread around to cover a large area. "Radio Sausalito broadcasts on 1610 AM in Southern Marin, simulcast on Marin County Cable TV 26(SAP), 27 and 30, and streaming live online!"
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Post by thelegacy on Jan 17, 2018 23:35:42 GMT
Tim has a format that is not available on terrestrial Radio or LPFM in his area The general public loves his station and even his boss at a commercial station he worked for didn't see it as a threat after he explained what he was playing. On the other hand KFC Radio advertising Kentucky Fried Chicken was not of real value to the public unless they had other content beside telling the public over and over how good KFC was.
Avoiding complaints because you have something to offer is a good thing. This way if your not 100% by the book your not likely to see an issue. Too high of a profile and too low of public interest in your station could be the ticket to getting your station shut down. Just some observations I'm seeing. And by al means don't cause harmful interference. Check your stuff regularly to make sure its clean.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2018 2:26:54 GMT
Know Your Pigs
We know what TheLegacy means: "Don't let the media interview your station because remember other broadcasting companies will also find out and they'll squeal like a stuffed pig."
A stuffed pig would be a dead pig and would no longer be able to squeal. It is living pigs which get stuck between the slats of a fence because they are too fat and squeal like holy hell. They squeal like a stuck pig.
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