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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2018 23:14:08 GMT
The apparent close of the SSTran Era and the End of the Excellent AMT3000/5000 Kits has punctured my enthusiasm for promoting this great radio hobby.
As we say everyday part15 FM isn't to be taken seriously because of the silly 15.239 rule despite some amazing transmitters like the Decade and EDM, neither of which is certified.
Of course AM, where the hobby has a chance of providing something of a service, has its high quality Procaster, Grain Industry GI-100/1000 and Rangemaster Certified Transmitters, but they are not hobby priced through no fault of their manufacturers. These brave companies have no choice in trying to recoup the engineering and filing costs involved to be accepted by the FCC.
I intentionally left out the Talking House, because despite its certification and lower price, they have poor reviews overall by users.
The few remaining AM transmitter kits might have some learners value but do not seem like the transmitters anyone wants to end up with.
I'd say that the future of the hobby depends on building one's own equipment, which is permitted according to part 15, but most would-be broadcasters lack the skill and will play elsewhere.
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Post by Boomer on Jan 12, 2018 0:12:43 GMT
Carl's in the 4000 Club!
Carl can bench press 4000 lbs, no, 4k posts.
People have their specialties in radio, I've seen it, some people, you put a microphone in front of them and a studio and they can start rolling and do their bits, others are the same with a workbench and soldering iron. It's probably hard to be pro at both, unless radio is all you do.
At least home radio compels you to be both, or at least allows it more than commercial radio that has the personnel to do different jobs. Maybe we need a cast of people working with our stations, but that might be easier said than done with a station located in your house while you're learning.
It is a good idea to learn something about what makes your radio signal 'go'
Boomer
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Post by station8 on Jan 13, 2018 0:33:48 GMT
Howdy All: I'll put my 2 cents in. Been busy!
As I worked in the electronic industries field of 14 years I can tell you,.
1) The small Business man cost to get material is a lot different then a big manufactures! So people need to understand why the cost is the way it is even to poor economy.
2) Look like it time for homebrew on the rise again!
3) As for the comments on the Talking House 5.0 tx keep in mind its 99% Operator ERROR why This transmitter has problems!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
I have never had issues with mine and I bought mine used in good condition!!.
And my audio quality is good on the unit and It had NO MODIFICATIONS TO MY AUDIO CIRCUITS!!!!!!!!!!!.
You build a better antenna with better bandwith you will hear the audio quality!!!!!!!!.
I ran my talking house 5.0 on the internal antenna with my creative zen And it had 7 options for audio source settings and the tx sounded like it was Supposed to each of the settings.
When working with am tx you can't be thinking like an FM tx when setting Your audio setting other wise its you will fall flat on your face 100% all The time!!!!!!!!!!.
We need to clear the air on this talking house I'm tried hearing bad thing about this tx!!!!!!!.
Any Am,Fm,Sw,cb or other tx can sound like crap or excellent sound but it all depends on the setup!!!!!.
When doing or building you guys need to look outside of the box!!!!.
Hope this helps
Station 8
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2018 5:42:11 GMT
To Our Fellow ALPB Member Jeff Station 8
Jeff Station 8 said these words: "We need to clear the air on this talking house I'm tried hearing bad thing about this tx!!!!!!!."
My reply is this...
I understand what you are saying. It is unfair of me to be judgemental about the Talking House AM Transmitter especially since I have never had one.
From now on I will not say anything against the Talking House.
It is one of the certified transmitters and may easily do the job of getting more people into the radio hobby.
We have cleared the air.
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Post by mark on Jan 13, 2018 5:47:09 GMT
Carl said.."As we say everyday part15 FM isn't to be taken seriously because of the silly 15.239 rule despite some amazing transmitters like the Decade and EDM, neither of which is certified." Sorry I have to correct you. The Decade is most certainly certified for Canada and the USA. www.decadetransmitters.com/en/transmitters/ms-series(Check the features section). ALL Decade's are certified for the use they are designed for. Yes the EDM isn't and should be. The Waio/Cardiotheater are right up there in quality and are certified for the US and Canada.
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Post by station8 on Jan 13, 2018 14:31:04 GMT
Howdy all: My 2 cents.
Everyone has a right to there opinions.
But you need all the fact first before making that opinions Like a judge or police officer!.
I own 24 Am transmitter here and I tested a lot of these and I
Can tell you personally NOT one Am tx works or sounds the same on a Equal setup.
So I have to adjust each Am transmitter according for audio and rf output!.
All my test are done by actually testing,
NOT DONE BY COMPUTER SOFTWARE STIMULATION!.
And there is a difference between actually test and computer simulations!
So if you have any question please ask,but have been busy so give Me time to respond.
Also been having internet issues as well.
Station 8
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2018 15:43:09 GMT
A Little Off Sometimes
Mark presents the truth of the matter: "The Decade is most certainly certified for Canada and the USA."
Thank you for making that correction. I did know the Decade FM Transmitter is certified, and yet made the mistake of saying that it wasn't. The problem of holding two opposing beliefs about one subject is a form of "dual mindedness" and results from being religiously trained in early life prior to developing critical thinking skills.
And Jeff Station8 brings a fact that I am very curious about... each different transmitter has different performance with antenna and audio, and I know this is true because the part 15 transmitters each seem to have different output impedances which react differently to antenna characteristics.
Just thinking about one factor, the audio bandwidth, the width of the antenna wire theoretically affects the frequency response sent from the system. For me this fact is only theoretical because I have never done experiments to observe it, but I know that Jeff has done experiments and has proven these things.
And like Mark (or someone) said, we should learn more about the technology if our original interest is a certain kind of music. I do want to run experiments to see for myself the difference in audio bandwidth between a thin-wire and a thick-metal antenna.
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Post by End80 on Jan 13, 2018 21:14:29 GMT
I've never had a TH either, but I think the only reason people sometimes tend to knock the Talking House is that they are comparing them to Rangemasters and Procasters - But a brand new Talking House cost less than $100!, and a brand-new IAM is less than $200.
You can buy 8 brand-new Talking House 5.0 for the price of 1 Rangemaster, and still have change left over.
So yeah, the Talking House may not be as premium, but they are nothing to sneeze at either; they've been selling for almost 40 years, they are the most predominate and by far widely used FCC Part15 Certified AM transmitter in history, the leading TIS provider in the nation incorporates them exclusively into their InfoSpots which broadcast in thousands of public areas throughout the U.S.
So yeah, it's like a mobile home compared to a two story brick n mortar house, but they both serve the purpose.
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Post by Admin on Jan 14, 2018 3:12:30 GMT
I ran nothing but the TH ver 2 for many years and will again when I put the antenna back up.
The range was acceptable and never had a hummmmmm problem, at least not outside the house.
The audio was lacking on the low end but a simple capacitor mod fixed that.
A trimmer cap was also added to net the transmit frequency.
The only problem I've noticed which is common to all 5 of my old TH's is the auto tuner tends to get stuck. But then, I'm not using that as I have the external ATU antenna system. A little lube fixes it usually.
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Post by thelegacy on Jan 14, 2018 6:21:54 GMT
I'd like a Procaster if I can get out 2 miles without having to bury 30 foot ground radials to do it.
Plus due to the fact I can't climb up high places I would depend on a fully sighted person to help.
We have a slim choice of fully assembled AM transmitters that are not toys and put out Album Rock quality audio and not be a Flycaster.
I've got done money invested in this so toy time is not acceptable as they want results as the funds come in.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2018 17:51:41 GMT
Evolution of a Hobby
One thing I said in my opening post of this thread holds true... my personal enthusiasm for the hobby has been crushed by the close of SSTran and the great AMT3000/5000 Transmitter Kits.
While I still view low power radio as among the most sophisticated of hobbies, I myself am moving on to a different way of seeing things.
For me low power radio has become an appliance in the same sense that the telephone and kitchen equipment are appliances. My low power radio station supplies the great programming that is otherwise completely lacking on the local radio dial. The licensed stations in my area have failed to be necessary and my own home appliance radio service fills the need.
This different way of labeling doesn't make me that much different from other low power radio stations, recognizing that the true reason most of you broadcast is the same as me... you want to hear what you like coming from the radio. It is the ultimate way of controlling the program.
But I wouldn't spend time promoting water heaters or power mowers, and by the same token I'm done promoting micro-radio.
Yet no dramatic change will be noticeable... there remains plenty of potential for information exchange with other stations to keep everyone's home radio appliance running well.
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Post by mark on Jan 15, 2018 6:20:37 GMT
Carl, I don't understand why a transmitter maker closing down changes your enthusiasm for the hobby? If Decade closed shop as it will some time in the future how would that change how I view the hobby. It would be a set back sure as not only the only BETS-1 approved transmitters but quality like no other but my passion for the hobby would be unaffected. You'll get over it and there are other AM transmitters...it's not like loosing a person that can't be replaced. As for some not hobby priced there's still the Talking House, Spitfire, etc. that are....even the one by Sean Cuthbert you can get on Ebay. And the SStran's you have now will last a long time if you look after them.
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Post by thelegacy on Jan 15, 2018 6:38:16 GMT
Thanks to tattletales in their Cruise who like to harass transmitter manufacturers you can forget the sean transmitter.
Every time there is a very good preassembled transmitter sold out there somebody has to try and get it taken off because they don't like the fact that it might not be a hundred percent certified. The am transmitter seem to get the most harassment.
I'm still looking for a very good pre-assembled transmitter that has some decent range and that is a quest that I'm trying to find. Again I'm not looking for toys I'm looking for something that will get me out.
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Post by End80 on Jan 15, 2018 13:22:33 GMT
"I'd like a Procaster if I can get out 2 miles without having to bury 30 foot ground radials to do it... ..I'm still looking for a very good pre-assembled transmitter that has some decent range and that is a quest that I'm trying to find. Again I'm not looking for toys I'm looking for something that will get me out."
Range Range Range..
RANGE!! I want more range! I've recently spoke my views about this at HB. Range is the wrong mindset to have if you want your part15 station to endure. You have to keep in mind that, despite the rules, it's seldom actually the ground leads that eventually lead to a NOUO, it's excess range.
Case in point; There are literally thousands of part15AM transmitters which have been operating in federal and state parks, forestry "nature trails", wildlife refuges, historic sites, etc., for almost 50 years now, -- And 99% of those installs incorporate at least 10ft of ground lead, - thousands of them, and that's the way it's always been from the very start. This undocumented but apparent leeway is tolerated, and due to a matter of necessity; obviously there can't be transmitters sitting at ground level for wildlife to stomp all over, snow or flooding to submerge, tourist to vandalize or steal, etc. However, the range of those installs have always been approximately 1/4 to 1/2 range, sometimes a little more, but that's been the average range acceptable for the last half century.
For a long time I've been meaning to write about this in my blog, but still don't have the story fleshed out, but here's a brief overview to better emphasize my point: The very first outdoor whip and mast part15 transmitters came into existence in 1968 at Yellowstone along a 5 mile stretch of one way road, it was six transmitters each one covering a distance of about 1/4 mile, they experimented with it for about two years and then they proceeded to have some more built and incorporated them into the different areas of the park. There had never been anything like this before (remember this was years before TIS ever came into existence) and the public response was exceptional and this "new" method of informing the public was getting a lot of positive attention.
But the FCC was really leaning on Yellowstone about it. Yellowstone park 1971 documentation stated .."..There are some problems with FCC which are still unresolved and it is possible that we might have to terminate the entire project.".. ..The details are still hazy on exactly what happened next, but they did not shut it down, as a matter of fact, the following year they installed a few more, and then even more the following year, and then more; the last specific count I found was 44 of them by 1975, and the success at Yellowstone prompted other parks across the nation to also begin using the method.
While all this was going on it began spreading to highway rest stops, first only about 35 of them around Montana, but this got the Highway Departments interested because they had been trying to figure out a working method themselves for years without success, so around 1972 Highway Departments had meetings with the FCC and the INFO Systems manufacturer in hopes of using the same methods but they wanted a little more range, and started asking can we achieve 2000ft range?, what about 4,000ft?.. how about 6,000ft?.. and so forth.. And that's when George Petrutsas of the FCC spoke up with a very interesting response...
"That is the problem. Technically you can do it at any distance. Our present rules of the Commission provide that once you go beyond that three to five hundred feet, you get into the areas of interference with the broadcast service and whatever it serves. At that point you get into serious problems...".
Now I guess I went off the subject and off-cocked there, I just got carried away, but it brings us back to the point of RANGE;
What is the primary objective of Part 15? - It's objective is protection. Protection against what?? - Interference. Interference against what? - Well, for our subset of rules; it's to not cause interference to licensed broadcasters. Not to cause interference how? - Not to cause interference to their frequencies or to their territory.
Part 15 is not even a broadcast medium, that is why petitions to relax the rules has been denied numerous times in the past; to relax the rules means to increase interference. Nevertheless, it is obvious that a relaxation of the rules have been practiced by the FCC for last 50 years anyway - it's just not documented. The written rules give us an inch, but we've always taken a mile. If they document the leeway (ie: the mile), it will result in us taking even more.. You see what I mean?; If the FCC actually enforced to the letter of 15.219 then no one would have ever, not then, not now, never possibly achieve even a 1/4 mile range legally under 15.219.
So, all things considered; The best bet is to keep your range radius within about a mile, and you'll probably never run into trouble. If you want more range than that, then use more transmitters. Or if you decide to be 100% legal per the written rules, then you might be able to cover only your block with a single transmitter..
We are already permitted more than what is officially allowed, so I'm convinced that it's prudent to get the mindset of RANGE out of our heads if we want to insure the continued existence of our little stations. A mile radius is pretty damned significant to be able to operate without any license or permissions, or further requirements, or fees, or limitations to what we may broadcast. We already have a pretty sweet deal and it's free. Why get greedy and screw it all up?
Wow... I was just going to make a short comment and got carried away.
Oh! by the way, an interesting tidbit: The same company behind the INFO systems (those very first outdoor part15 transmitters) were also the inventor of the smoke detector! Isn't that interesting?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2018 16:41:15 GMT
Adjusting to the World As It Is
Wisdom spoken by End80: "I'm convinced that it's prudent to get the mindset of RANGE out of our heads if we want to insure the continued existence of our little stations."
This is absolutely true and can be proven or found out from many different directions.
I've written that if there's any rationale for permitting legal low power operation (part 15) it's as a personal resource growing out of its roots as a method of using one's radio as the amplifier/speaker for a budget phonograph.
The realm of public broadcasting to a larger range falls by definition into a regulated area requiring a license and stringent engineering.
I greatly appreciate the scholarship found in End80's detailed review of the "information station" history carried on at public locations and its relationship to the hobby radio we practice today. In real fact the info-station example demonstrates a bridge from personal radio to a small-area public radio outreach.
That's the technical side of it, the other side being whatever "cause" drives an operator to seek a larger audience, such as delivery of "Swiss music". Now we're outside of FCC concern because the part 15 rules say nothing about program content, which makes virtually anything possible.
But how serious a need is it? In matter of fact the general person enjoys an unlimited plethora of sources for Swiss music both paid and free, from public libraries, internet web sites, new and used record stores and in some locations the occasional licensed Swiss music station. Next, by taking into account the actual interest we discover that only a certain percentage of the audience will have a special interest in this one category which leaves out some pie-slice of the possible audience.
Facing reality we can surmise that the hopeful Swiss music station has no concrete knowledge about an actual target audience, as that imagined extra range only reaches strangers in a fantasy.
Taking one step back into the real world we can say that a cause such as Swiss music can be realized without radio. Once could distribute CD records to the interested audience without restriction as to range. Or, and perhaps already in operation, there's online streaming which requires no ground radials and replaces range with global omni-presence.
But practical answers are not satisfying to the central generator of all passionate causes, the human EGO! This excellent music is coming from ME! I am your radio station! I alone know the best records and the finest order in which to sort them!
A part 15 transmitter as an extension of ego can sometimes be deflating.
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