w9lwa
New Member
Posts: 43
|
Post by w9lwa on Apr 13, 2019 5:54:08 GMT
Well, what are we saying here, that we'll get the best range by having it no further above the ground than will allow a ground lead short enough that combined with our antenna will not exceed three meters?
All comments much appreciated...
John W9LWA
|
|
Rich
Full Member
RF Systems Engr (retired)
Posts: 112
|
Post by Rich on Apr 13, 2019 10:46:53 GMT
Well, what are we saying here, that we'll get the best range by having it no further above the ground than will allow a ground lead short enough that combined with our antenna will not exceed three meters? Several comments to the above quote, from the perspective of Physics:
- The length of the ground lead includes the sum of the length(s) of all of the conductors existing in the longest path between the circuit bus common+chassis+"ground" connections of/at the transmitter, and a true r-f ground.
- A true r-f ground does not exist at the top of an elevated conductor, even though its opposite end is connected to the earth via ground rods or a set of buried radials. This includes the "ground" terminal of an a-c outlet used to supply power to the transmitter, the framework of a building/billboard/water tower, the metal roof of a structure, a flag pole, a tower, etc.
- Unlicensed AM transmit systems operating under, and compliant with FCC §15.219 will be affected by the physical realities included in the two "bullets" above.
|
|
|
Post by sparepart on Apr 13, 2019 13:34:14 GMT
With the understanding that an unburied ground lead will radiate: How does one square the FCC ground lead length limitation with the NEC requirement to bond all the ground(s) together?
IE what happens when you bond your antenna / communications ground to the buildings electrical ground per code? SP
|
|
Rich
Full Member
RF Systems Engr (retired)
Posts: 112
|
Post by Rich on Apr 13, 2019 14:26:50 GMT
... what happens when you bond your antenna / communications ground to the buildings electrical ground per code? Then it will meet the requirements of both regulating agencies, as long as the conductors of that physical configuration do not produce an antenna system with a radiating length including the "ground" conductor(s) that exceeds the 3 meters permitted by FCC §15.219(b).
|
|
|
Post by thelegacy on Apr 14, 2019 7:38:06 GMT
With the remanufactured antenna tuning unit for the talking house and iAM transmitter due to come out this spring and may I add that this unit is certified under the FCC rules 4 part 15 Broadcasting this antenna tuner has a few things that should be duly noted. 1 is the fact that there is a 25 foot coaxial cable that is going to be sold with this from what I understand. This means obviously that the 25 ft of coax is not included in that rule. Next we see that the antenna tuning unit has a 3/8 by 24 threaded stud which can be connected to a 102 inch whip such as the Hustler CB whip.
Next you must observe that the ground on the talking house transmitter uses your house ground or the third prong of your electrical socket. The ground lead or should I say power cord which is in fact a ground lead though very then is connected to this transmitter thus Froze that entire rule out the window and yet this system has been accepted by the FCC foot part 15 use.
This subject has been brought up several times call Michele Bradley's part 15 AM FM hobby broadcasting forum to which was concluded that the FCC did not in these days nor did they really look at the ground in previous days until one certain individual sort of kept poking them in the eye until they did pop a couple of stations and now you don't never hear of it again.
Next we have the dying status of the am broadcast band itself to which some people are in denial about but it has been mentioned on this very Farm as well that so long as your range is not astronomically stupid and you're not causing interference or trying to sell ads which compete with these stations you're probably most likely going to be okay. We have observed this with ktgr radio in Indiana who is running a procaster any very long ground might I add and to this day this very radio station is still on the air with reports of a 6-mile coverage.
We also have Joe the ham dude who is pretty much ostracized by one of the members on another part 15 site because he has proven on his rangemaster on a tower could achieve a very nice strong signal 5/2 miles. He claimed he did not connect any ground lead to the transmitter but that remains to be seen he has been operating for years without any incident and I've actually talked to this gentleman on the phone one day.
I'm interested to find out what's going to happen when this antenna tuning unit for the talking house becomes available and people start putting their antennas way up there. Will find out just what will happen. My take is not much.
|
|
Rich
Full Member
RF Systems Engr (retired)
Posts: 112
|
Post by Rich on Apr 14, 2019 14:52:43 GMT
...I'm interested to find out what's going to happen when this antenna tuning unit for the talking house becomes available and people start putting their antennas way up there. Will find out just what will happen. My take is not much. That may be so, but not necessarily because that device is based on the Physics needed to comply with FCC Part 15 AM for unlicensed transmit systems.
|
|
|
Post by thelegacy on Apr 15, 2019 3:42:16 GMT
Comply with the Rules: Which rules by Book 15:219 or by grey area? I say Grey area from the ATU and obvious long ground & Certified for Part 15 Not that many care as AM is again a dying band (See I Love AM Radio Facebook Page, Part 15 AM&FM Hobby Broadcasting on Facebook) where Michelle Bradley made the statement about AM that the FM Translators are a band aid till AM either goes all digital, C-Quam AM Stereo, or dies and goes to part 15 Hobby Broadcasting ONLY till that too could have an end. Now when A dies it will be a Citizens Broadcast Band till when or IF the FCC takes it away but I doubt they will as it solves the Pirate Radio Issue on FM.
Speaking of AM and Rules for anyone who cares to read the list of commercial stations blatantly breaking rules willfully by using Daytime power at night (I brought this up on REC net a well monitored forum by the FCC). As was said many times before as long as your not interfering on AM and not being blatantly stupid (10+ Watts AM) or in a Large market, Obscene language, Hateful messages your OK with your ASMAX2 C-Quam AM Stereo Transmitter, Rangemaster, Talking House. That is unless you get a nosy Parker who will nudge the FCC about a station like KTGR till their sick of them and have no choice to whip out the van and bust them and have a beer drinking party afterwards. Or (I Believe the later) keep ignoring those calls in favor of stations like WRDW in Augusta, GA on 1630 who loves to run daytime power at night along with a station in NC doing the same thing. Like I said there is a laundry list of what I call "Licensed Pirates" on AM so its obvious AM is not high priority in the FCC's take down list unless again your interfering with other services which in my opinion and this is again from what I've witnessed the Talking House AM transmitter with its wire antenna causes far more harmonics at a further distance than the ASMAX2 C-Quam AM Stereo transmitter (Tested by myself and a broadcast engineer) so if you get busted using the Talking House its because of your harmonics. I have not tested the Rangemaster so I can not say yea or nay to that one.
Just my 2 cents worth although it may not be worth anything.
|
|
w9lwa
New Member
Posts: 43
|
Post by w9lwa on Apr 20, 2019 21:08:07 GMT
Does anyone know if the term ground lead has really been legally defined? Has the FCC published a comprehensive definition or, more importantly, has it been addressed through the federal courts or even administrative proceedings? The science is well and good, but for regulatory purposes, a ground lead is whatever the law says it is and that may or may not have much to do with the genuinely applicable science...
All comments appreciated. I've only done a little legal research on this and so far, I haven't found much.
John W9LWA
|
|
Rich
Full Member
RF Systems Engr (retired)
Posts: 112
|
Post by Rich on Apr 20, 2019 21:47:38 GMT
... Has the FCC published a comprehensive definition or, more importantly, has it been addressed through the federal courts or even administrative proceedings?...etc The link below leads to an example of an FCC administrative action where the last several sentences of the 2nd paragraph refer to the ground wire (or "lead").
|
|
|
Post by End80 on Apr 20, 2019 23:09:07 GMT
For the sake of a general rule of thumb... A part 15 AM transmitter is incapable of exceeding a mile radius of range under the best of conditions.
You can install the transmitter a few inches above the ground to conform 100% to the rules, or you can install it about ten high feet as the established norm (thus actually exceeding the rule as written) yet still be deemed acceptable. But the bottom line is a single transmitter is generally permitted no more than a mile at the most in RADIUS (usually even less).. So if you are exceeding that then it's a sure sign that you are operating illegally.. you might get away with it for years as long as no one complains.
Edit: but to answer your question, the "ground lead" is obviously the lead of wire used as ground which is running from your transmitter until it enters the dirt.
|
|
w9lwa
New Member
Posts: 43
|
Post by w9lwa on Apr 21, 2019 0:21:10 GMT
... Has the FCC published a comprehensive definition or, more importantly, has it been addressed through the federal courts or even administrative proceedings?...etc The link below leads to an example of an FCC administrative action where the last several sentences of the 2nd paragraph refer to the ground wire (or "lead").
Well no, that's just an enforcement notice that serves no purpose beyond the notice of alleged violation it states. It's like getting a traffic ticket. Determinations as to whether a law applies or has been broken are judicial determinations and that's the sole subject of my inquiry. It is interesting to note they seem to use ground lead and ground wire interchangeably. So will the applicable judicial authority rule that a ground lead/wire includes something like a tower if we attach to it a short ground wire to from a Rangemaster mounted atop? These regulations carry criminal penalties so regulatory language must be strictly construed and common terms given their common meanings. Is a federal court going to send someone to federal prison for not thinking a tower is a wire under 15.219? I think not. The apparent lack of judicial determinations, administrative or otherwise are probably because those accused of violations are afraid to fight them due to the severity of potential criminal penalties and the cost of legal defense. That's not the same thing as enforcement agents having the last word as to what is legal and what is not. If anything, the FCC has limited this term by the language of it's enforcement notices. It's a wire. I appreciate your comments. John W9LWA
|
|
w9lwa
New Member
Posts: 43
|
Post by w9lwa on Apr 21, 2019 0:39:07 GMT
For the sake of a general rule of thumb... A part 15 AM transmitter is incapable of exceeding a mile radius of range under the best of conditions.
You can install the transmitter a few inches above the ground to conform 100% to the rules, or you can install it about ten high feet as the established norm (thus actually exceeding the rule as written) yet still be deemed acceptable. But the bottom line is a single transmitter is generally permitted no more than a mile at the most in RADIUS (usually even less).. So if you are exceeding that then it's a sure sign that you are operating illegally.. you might get away with it for years as long as no one complains.
Edit: but to answer your question, the "ground lead" is obviously the lead of wire used as ground which is running from your transmitter until it enters the dirt.
Perhaps there is indeed cause for suspicion regarding usable signals going over a mile. I know I'd be happy with a mile when I get this all set up, but I don't know that I expect it. I want a legal set-up and I'll take whatever range I get. But, I don't know about the definition of ground lead being that obvious. When it comes to matters involving criminal penalties, the language must be very clear and very strictly construed. Under such circumstances, I think a ground lead/wire is only a ground lead/wire when it's a wire grounding something. Once it attaches to something else, it becomes something else, be it a tower, water pipe or rod in the ground. I don't see a federal court sending anyone to federal prison for not thinking any of those are wires under Part 15. You mentioned mounting the antenna on the ground to be sure the installation is legal. Do you have thoughts as to how the range for this compares with elevated mounting on the AM broadcast band? I've heard both ways as to the effect of HAAT at middlewave frequencies. I appreciate your comments. John W9LWA
|
|
|
Post by End80 on Apr 21, 2019 3:44:43 GMT
Well John, you're argument is quite identical to those made about ten-fifteen years ago... Anyway, as you have pointed out in your previous response concerning the linked NOUO (only one of many similar): "It is interesting to note they seem to use ground lead and ground wire interchangeably".
You can continue to argue the fact if you wish, but it is not two different things, but the same.. The ground wire (or rather the conducting path to ground) IS the ground lead. The entire purpose of limiting the antenna system is to insure limited range.
Nevertheless, it is and as always been a common practice (since at least 1968 in Yellowstone, and throughout the United States ever since) of utilizing a longer than the rule specified ground lead, and has been knowingly tolerated by the FCC throughout the years, provided the range was maintained to correspond with the ultimate capabilities of that which a 3 meter antenna system could provide.
|
|
w9lwa
New Member
Posts: 43
|
Post by w9lwa on Apr 21, 2019 4:44:51 GMT
Well John, you're argument is quite identical to those made about ten-fifteen years ago... Anyway, as you have pointed out in your previous response concerning the linked NOUO (only one of many similar): "It is interesting to note they seem to use ground lead and ground wire interchangeably".
You can continue to argue the fact if you wish, but it is not two different things, but the same.. The ground wire (or rather the conducting path to ground) IS the ground lead. The entire purpose of limiting the antenna system is to insure limited range.
Nevertheless, it is and as always been a common practice (since at least 1968 in Yellowstone, and throughout the United States ever since) of utilizing a longer than the rule specified ground lead, and has been knowingly tolerated by the FCC throughout the years, provided the range was maintained to correspond with the ultimate capabilities of that which a 3 meter antenna system could provide.
Any idea who those arguments were made to ten-fifteen years ago? If it was in front of an ALJ or in federal court, the outcome means something and I'd like to look it up. If they were just to a field agent or someone else in enforcement, it probably doesn't mean much. That's nothing more than arguing with a traffic cop about getting a ticket. As they say, you have to "tell it to the Judge." Does it actually say someplace that a ground lead is the conducting path to the ground? If it doesn't, it's not. In matters with criminal penalties, they can't just say well, it says ground lead but it means the conducting path to the ground. If there are criminal penalties, the regulatory language must be clear and plain, say what it means and mean what it says. It's not something that must be interpreted by a Court to apply. Civil matters, yes. Criminal matters, no. There is no common law in the US when it comes to criminal matters. To expect everyone to just know what a ground lead is and isn't is entirely too vague. It's like a law that prohibits speeding but nobody tells you how fast you can go. It looks to me like people just go along with this because nobody wants to assume the cost and risk of getting it in front of a Judge. Could the intent of the regulation be to actually limit radiation from components of the ground system? Sure, but where does it say that? You aren't supposed to have to guess what the law might be when there are criminal penalties involved. If I'm wrong, please point me to a proceeding where it's been addressed or an otherwise legal definition of ground lead that has been officially determined. This is strictly a legal issue and if it hasn't been addressed judicially, everyone is just guessing what it all means. I appreciate your comments. John W9LWA
|
|
|
Post by End80 on Apr 21, 2019 5:02:27 GMT
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ground%20lead ground lead noun Definition of ground lead 1 : a contrivance for guiding a cable that hauls logs along the ground 2 : ground wire
ground wire noun Definition of ground wire 1 : a wire making a ground connection 2 : the part of a circuit formed by the earth
|
|